138 replies to this topic

[Pellaeon]

It seems like they moving straight forward to their wedding in the show. They soften Tyrions behavior, so he care more for her in the show than in the book, at least his behavior in ACoK. How do you think they manage the wedding? I think D&D could see a chance to bring some  informations, we know only out of his inner monologues, in conversations between Sansa and him, when he tried to comfort her. The story, he always wanted a dragon etc. for example. Considering they building up Trion to the main character this season, it's unlikely the marriage will end up like in the books, cold and only with mutual mistrust. Maybe GRRM even told D&D how it will end, or the marriage is at least importand (only a hopefull wish), and that is the reason they try to build up a long-term relation, for example: they let Tyrion act like the valiant knight during Sansas beating scene

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Oh well, in the books, Tyrion also saved her from Joffrey. A bit too late, because she could hardly walk from the countless blows, but even still; he saved her. He was the only Lannister who does care for her, even though it's only for the sake of his brother Jaime. I don't hope that they will romanticize the whole relationship, as that wouldn't make any sense and it's quite the opposite in the books. However, I hope that the nonbookreaders won't punish Sansa for that.

[Woman of War]

They are certainly not going to romantise the relationship during this or series 3  because the wedding to come is about the awkwardnes, the humiliation and the despair and shame of ot only Sansa but t Tyrion as well.
There is no romantics in it but deep loneliness and sadness for both. And I hope they will not shy away from making the whole marriage scene, the confrontation with Joffrey and the awkwardness of the wedding night palpable to  watchers. For example I believe that making the characters naked in a way would be helpful here and ot gratitious because it that so very embarrassing situation physical nakednes symbolizes being made bare of dignity and all defences of the soul, presented in all vulnerability to the other one caught up in this miserable situation. I am aware of course that both actors probably would not like a full frontal nude shot but there should be found a way to present their humiliation. Tyrion as being ugly and naked before a girl that does not want him at all, Sansa expecting to be raped. How to do this when one actor is a minor, no idea.
Though I think the marriage will be truly important in further books and the series to come, they may be preparing the ground for it now only to come back to whatever ending in book seven (or eight )

[Pellaeon]

I don't speak of romantise the relationship either but of doing more than dinner conversation about overcooked meals, maybe some sort of minor trust or respect. After tonight episode something I remember Tyrion saved Catelyn at the way to the vale. Maybe it as nothing important but as I remember not in the  book, and since minor events gets some credit in this season (Ros necklet, Sansas doll) it could be important to build something up like respect

[David Selig]

Pellaeon, on 28 May 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I don't speak of romantise the relationship either but of doing more than dinner conversation about overcooked meals, maybe some sort of minor trust or respect. After tonight episode something I remember Tyrion saved Catelyn at the way to the vale. Maybe it as nothing important but as I remember not in the  book, and since minor events gets some credit in this season (Ros necklet, Sansas doll) it could be important to build something up like respect

Tyrion saving Catelyn during the fight with the clansmen in the Vale is in the books too.

[jons nissa]

i agree that hbo is making tyrion much more gallant than i perceived him to be. and i am a hardcore tyrion lover. i don't feel that spoils him at this point - he was fairly tame in the second book as well.

i also believe they are setting up the marriage to make tyrion seem more willing to work at making it successful than sansa from her jape at him in the blackwater episode. he's already said many positive things directly to her and about her and she tells him she prays for him as she prays for joff which i interpret to mean negatively.

i don't think hbo will keep tyrion a heroic figure though. i expect them to show his "journey to the dark side" but i fully expect it to be toned down. everything has been toned down so far. i expect the marriage dynamics to be toned down as well but sansa will more than likely be made to look like the difficult one from what we've seen so far.

[BlueQueen]

I think it's very interesting this season how they have showed him admiring her. And because of this and Tyrion in general on the show, I think that it will come across as Sansa making the marriage horrible. Personally,I blamed her more in the book anyways simply because she should have recognized that he was protecting her from the worst of things and she could have been even a bit grateful, like trying to make conversation or at least participate in the ones Tyrion starts. Honestly, the Lannisters were never going to let her get away, even if Tyrion had turned her down she would have gone to someone else of Tywin's choosing and guaranteed Sansa would not have kept her maidenhead. On the show, her childishness will come across as even more ridiculous because Sophie Turner does not look like a child. At least in the book, Sansa's behavior is a bit more reasonable because she is so young, an actual child, and this makes Tyrion's expectations of her in the marriage unreasonable.
Then on the show there is Shae who is oddly enough, Sansa's confidante. This will change things with the marriage as well I think and how everything is shown. I'll be interested to see what they do with Shae and also just the marriage in general. I think they may have to make it a little less miserable to make it more believable with show Tyrion and Sansa. These two will have to at least come to some small understanding and the awkward naked Sansa being groped by Tyrion is so not going to happen on the show. This is NOT something that TV Tyrion would do. Another thought, in the book Tyrion makes the excuse to Tywin that he has not bedded Sansa because she is too young, while true in the books, this is not really believable with Sophie Turner, who looks like she could be 18. I look forward to how this all works out on the show.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

The actress is flat out too young for a nude scene with the actor.  I am fine with them skipping the gory details of the wedding night and presenting it in a softer tone.  It can be humiliating without them both being nude and him groping her.

I do worry about them softening their star character too much, though.  So far Tyrion walks on water when I found him crude and repugnant in the books.  His relationship with Shae, for example, has been far kinder and intimate than it ever was in the books.

She was his plaything in the books.

[Lyanna Stark]

BlueQueen, on 29 May 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

I think it's very interesting this season how they have showed him admiring her. And because of this and Tyrion in general on the show, I think that it will come across as Sansa making the marriage horrible. Personally,I blamed her more in the book anyways simply because she should have recognized that he was protecting her from the worst of things and she could have been even a bit grateful, like trying to make conversation or at least participate in the ones Tyrion starts. Honestly, the Lannisters were never going to let her get away, even if Tyrion had turned her down she would have gone to someone else of Tywin's choosing and guaranteed Sansa would not have kept her maidenhead.

So Tyrion gets a cookie for not engaging in rape?

Just sorry, but no. Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is forced, and him agreeing to it by being baited by Tywin was one of his lowest point at that stage. Tyrion  is totally deluding himself that it will somehow work since he gets a huge inheritance and a pretty girl, what could possibly go wrong? It's only afterwards he realises that Sansa is utterly miserable, his family has murdered hers and she thinks one Lannister is as bad as any other.

The whole schtick that Sansa ought to be grateful is a bit like you should be grateful to someone they only broke your ribs when they could have broken your arms, too. It's still a really shitty, awful situation.

Regarding the portrayal, I think they are running a great risk of Sansa coming across as a complete bitch, since evidenced by a lot of the book threads and the post above, people completely miss the point in the books, so something very obvious needs to be put in to clue people in on that no, Sansa will NOT, in fact, magically love Tyrion, nor even accept the marriage. And that this is 100% her right and prerogative. If they do, I am fine with it.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 30 May 2012 - 02:48 AM.

[Raksha the Demon]

BlueQueen is right in that the physical maturity of Sophie Turner will work against (and already has, in my opinion) the treatment and understanding of the character of Sansa.  Tyrion's telling Sansa on their wedding night that he desires her even though she's a child will not work as well on television; because TV-Sansa is, as BlueQueen noted, 14-15 but looks closer to 18.  TV-Sansa came across as more immature and bratty than book-Sansa in Season 1, because of the difference in behavior and knowledge that can be expected between ages 11-13 (book-Sansa's age and TV-Sansa's age).  TV-Sansa came across as a whiny teenaged brat in Season 1, because she looked older than 13; except for episode 10, where she was well written and nailed Sansa's defiance of Joffrey.

And as BlueQueen said, Tyrion's excuse that he hasn't bedded his bride because of her being so close to childhood is not going to fly with Tywin when TV-Sansa is a broad-shouldered, tall teenager with a body that is no longer childlike.  I guess it's the fault of young Ms. Turner for growing up before our eyes, and looking older than she really is!

Tyrion is Sansa's jailor just like Cersei and Joffrey and Tywin.  Tyrion is just a more kindly jailor; one who has actually cared for her physical well-being.  That's why she agreed to marry him.  But he's still her jailor; he's not setting her free; she was going to be married to some Lannister despite her revulsion for the family; so she picked him, as the lesser of several evils.  It doesn't mean that she can bring herself to trust Tyrion Lannister, let alone love him.  Tyrion's hoping that his captive bride will magically tumble into his arms is even more ludicrous than his relationship with Shae; since at least the latter was, at its beginning, a mutually agreed business arrangement to which Shae gave willing consent - she had the option of saying no and walking out of Tyrion's tent.  And Shae was not legally bound to Tyrion for life, at least not legally.

I wonder if GRRM and the directors are setting the scene for a Tyrion/Sansa marriage that will actually endure, and that it will not be annulled in the books; especially since, in my opinion, the last TV SanSan scene was somewhat anemic.

Edited by Raksha the Demon, 30 May 2012 - 02:07 AM.

[Woman of War]

Thank you, GRRM, for that so very different Sansa! There is a  young woman who makes conscious decisions about her future, like not going with Sandor, may they seem understandable to everyone or not. We have a teenager with quick wits and a sense of irony: "....as I will pray for prince Joffrey", "always in the vanguard, and he is only a pretender", priceless . Did you see how the camera subtly shifted away from a frontal shot to profile, like Sansa averting her eyes at the "only  a pretender" formulation? The look on Tyrion's face when he truly realised what his wildfire trap does with people? Brilliant!
It does soo good that they have aged Sansa up, all the kids actually. I could never relate to the meek boring pretty little girl that automatically tries to please everyone as a reaction to whatever problem.  There is still the aspect of trying to be a proper lady but here it is coloured  by the effort to do things right, the way Sansa is convinced she should behave because her approach might make sense and be helpful. And not because she is a well trained little bird full of courtesies, repeating her lessons. Hopefully Martin will correct that problem in the books to come.
Concerning the Tyrion wedding they will have to make the protagonists find a certain understanding because the "too young" angle really won't work. That, on the other side, is maybe a pity because the writing of the wedding chapter was so brilliant capturing the deep misery and humiliation of both characters, the horrible awkwardness of being naked, confronted with the other one, the pity, the embarrassing sexual desire, Tyrion's ugliness and Sansa's beauty - how to capture all this with the transformed character of Sansa and the fact that Sophie Turner is a minor?
Unfortunately both Sansa and Tyrion are too good,  too morally unambigous at the moment to leave open the option that they might turn dark and evil, thus cutting off some valuable plot possibilities in the future.

Edited by Woman of War, 30 May 2012 - 03:10 AM.

[BlueQueen]

I agree with Raksha the Demon about their TV relationship possible indicating that their book relationship will continue in some form. There just doesn't seem to be a way for their TV relationship to be as cold as the book one. Also, like Raksha said, the scene with Sansa and the Hound wasn't exactly setting up a future romance, if anything it indicated that while maybe they will meet again, there are not romantic feelings to be explored in a concrete way.
    A point that many people seem to be missing with the Tyrion and Sansa conversation in episode 9 is that she is sincere when she speaks to Tyrion. In the book she does actually pray for him and because this is a thought, GRRM had her speak it instead for the show. There is no doubt when she turns that she is being spontaneous and saying something true. She has no reason to add that comment to him and yet she does. Her expression also seems to be genuine. It is only after she has said this and the viewer can now see Joff on screen behind her that she adds the bit about praying for the king which of course is necessary like all of her lies in KL. Her expression, which only Tyrion and Shae can see indicates that she is lying where the king is concerned. Tyrion and Sansa certainly understand that she lies about her feelings for the king with their scene in episode 4. Tyrion also does not look hurt when she says the added bit about Joff because he understands the game and the need for such lies.

[Wouter]

Woman of War, on 28 May 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

I hope they will not shy away from making the whole marriage scene, the confrontation with Joffrey and the awkwardness of the wedding night palpable to  watchers. For example I believe that making the characters naked in a way would be helpful here and ot gratitious because it that so very embarrassing situation physical nakednes symbolizes being made bare of dignity and all defences of the soul, presented in all vulnerability to the other one caught up in this miserable situation. I am aware of course that both actors probably would not like a full frontal nude shot but there should be found a way to present their humiliation. Tyrion as being ugly and naked before a girl that does not want him at all, Sansa expecting to be raped. How to do this when one actor is a minor, no idea.

Peter Dinklage isn't ugly though, just as Sansa in the show isn't a child the way the Sansa in the books is. I don't think they will show it as it is in the books, both to not make Tyrion too unlikeable for a TV audience and because the circumstances in he show will be slightly different with an older Sansa and a nicer Tyrion.

However, they can still be true to the spirit of the books if they keep the ambush the Lannisters spring on her - no warning until it's time for the wedding itself. And keep the threats from Cersei and Joffrey.

jon, on 29 May 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

i also believe they are setting up the marriage to make tyrion seem more willing to work at making it successful than sansa from her jape at him in the blackwater episode. he's already said many positive things directly to her and about her and she tells him she prays for him as she prays for joff which i interpret to mean negatively.

i don't think hbo will keep tyrion a heroic figure though. i expect them to show his "journey to the dark side" but i fully expect it to be toned down. everything has been toned down so far. i expect the marriage dynamics to be toned down as well but sansa will more than likely be made to look like the difficult one from what we've seen so far.

Sansa is supposed to be "the difficult one", isn't she? In the books, it is Tyrion who is making an attempt of sorts to make the marriage work and Sansa who wants nothing to do with it. This is perfectly logical, as Tyrion stands to gain a lot from a "working" marriage and Sansa does not want to reward him for keeping her captive and  forcing her to marry him.

What I agree is new in the show though, is that Sansa's cynical remark to Tyrion already seems to show resentment from her side (even though show-Tyrion seems to be considerably nicer to her than book-Tyrion; the latter publicly declared Sansa's treatment would depend on Robb's behaviour, and that was with her present) while Tyrion on the other hand seems to admire Sansa in ways quite unlike his book counterpart.

I also agree that a lot of things have been toned down in the show; Sandor, for example, is also considerably more tame in the show.

BlueQueen, on 29 May 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

Personally,I blamed her more in the book anyways simply because she should have recognized that he was protecting her from the worst of things and she could have been even a bit grateful, like trying to make conversation or at least participate in the ones Tyrion starts. Honestly, the Lannisters were never going to let her get away, even if Tyrion had turned her down she would have gone to someone else of Tywin's choosing and guaranteed Sansa would not have kept her maidenhead. On the show, her childishness will come across as even more ridiculous because Sophie Turner does not look like a child. At least in the book, Sansa's behavior is a bit more reasonable because she is so young, an actual child, and this makes Tyrion's expectations of her in the marriage unreasonable.

Tyrion was not attempting to protect her; he is attempting to take Winterfell as his seat and to gain a pretty wife in the process. If he was really trying to protect her, he could have arranged for her escape (LF did, Varys could have, I'm sure Tyrion could come up with a way as well if he really wanted) or at least have warned her beforehand and come to an agreement with her to go along with the ceremony while agreeing to forego consommation. Even after they married, he did never make an offer to let her travel (without him) to a place of her choosing.

I think it's a bit ironic that you consider Sansa childish for her lack of response to Tyrion while Woman of War, who "liked" your post wrote that she cannot relate to Sansa "automatically trying to please everyone as a reaction to whatever problem". Sansa certainly didn't try to please Tyrion in their marriage though!

Anyway, I don't think Sansa has any reason to be grateful to Tyrion (other than him not being as bad as Joffrey); he is one of her jailers, he threatened Robb with her life, and with the marriage he is actively attempting to make use of her for his purposes, without regards for her feelings in the matter. He first spoke to her about the marriage right before they went to the altar - that's absolutely no reason to be grateful.

Consequently, I don't think Sansa was acting childish; instead she was rightly resisting Tyrion with the limited means she had at her disposal; the one thing that is in Tyrion's favour is that he at least allowed her to get away with it, unlike the "monsters" like Ramsay or Joffrey would have.  Sansa is under no obligation to work with her captors; Tyrion chose to disregard her emotions as much as Tywin and Cersei did.
Moreover, Sansa was planning to escape the entire time; and I guess that counts as a divorce, anyway.

Sansa even showed great maturity for a 12-year old by accepting the marriage the way she did (maintaining her dignity during the ceremony) on the one hand, and by resisting it the way she did on the other hand. Sansa was well aware she was a captive being taken advantage off, against her family, and that Tyrion's relatively friendly overtures shouldn't fool her into thinking he wasn't one of her enemies, the Lannisters.

BlueQueen, on 29 May 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

These two will have to at least come to some small understanding and the awkward naked Sansa being groped by Tyrion is so not going to happen on the show. This is NOT something that TV Tyrion would do. Another thought, in the book Tyrion makes the excuse to Tywin that he has not bedded Sansa because she is too young, while true in the books, this is not really believable with Sophie Turner, who looks like she could be 18. I look forward to how this all works out on the show.

Agreed on that count.

Raksha the Demon, on 30 May 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

Tyrion is Sansa's jailor just like Cersei and Joffrey and Tywin.  Tyrion is just a more kindly jailor; one who has actually cared for her physical well-being.  That's why she agreed to marry him.  But he's still her jailor; he's not setting her free; she was going to be married to some Lannister despite her revulsion for the family; so she picked him, as the lesser of several evils.  It doesn't mean that she can bring herself to trust Tyrion Lannister, let alone love him.

She didn't even pick him; Tywin decided it all. Sansa could not realistically refuse after Cersei had ordered her to marry him, Lancel was not on the menu regardless of what Tyrion offered (Tyrion was bluffing IMO; the Lannisters could not afford to abort the wedding and not change the groom at the last moment either, especially not for bed-ridden Lancel).

Raksha the Demon, on 30 May 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

I wonder if GRRM and the directors are setting the scene for a Tyrion/Sansa marriage that will actually endure, and that it will not be annulled in the books; especially since, in my opinion, the last TV SanSan scene was somewhat anemic.

I have long suspected that the Tyrion-Sansa marriage may be given a fresh start in different circumstances (still not necessarily to Sansa's joy, however!), depending on how things end up (I do see a possibility of Tyrion as king in the end and then Sansa is the most likely queen).
However, the Sandor-Sansa scene actually portrayed Sandor considerably more sane and sympathetic than the rather psycho Sandor from the book scene. If we assume that making Tyrion more sympathetic to Sansa increases the likelihood of Sansa ending up with him in the end, then shouldn't a toned-down Sandor be considered equally more acceptable for a TV audience, if GRRM would be going that way?

Edited by Wouter, 30 May 2012 - 04:20 PM.

[Wouter]

BlueQueen, on 30 May 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

A point that many people seem to be missing with the Tyrion and Sansa conversation in episode 9 is that she is sincere when she speaks to Tyrion. In the book she does actually pray for him and because this is a thought, GRRM had her speak it instead for the show. There is no doubt when she turns that she is being spontaneous and saying something true. She has no reason to add that comment to him and yet she does. Her expression also seems to be genuine. It is only after she has said this and the viewer can now see Joff on screen behind her that she adds the bit about praying for the king which of course is necessary like all of her lies in KL. Her expression, which only Tyrion and Shae can see indicates that she is lying where the king is concerned. Tyrion and Sansa certainly understand that she lies about her feelings for the king with their scene in episode 4. Tyrion also does not look hurt when she says the added bit about Joff because he understands the game and the need for such lies.

Well, I hope your interpretation is correct and mine is wrong. It would be consistent with the books, and after all GRRM wrote them. It would also make more sense, considering how nice show-Tyrion has been so far.

[jons nissa]

Wouter, on 30 May 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

I have long suspected that the Tyrion-Sansa marriage may be given a fresh start in different circumstances (still not necessarily to Sansa's joy, however!), depending on how things end up (I do see a possibility of Tyrion as king in the end and then Sansa is the most likely queen).

i agree that i suspect tyrion-sansa being the end game for the two however i don't agree that tyrion was being nice only because he wanted to get winterfell and a pretty wife. after all he goes out of his way to be kind and protect sansa long before his father ever got the notion to acquire the north. still, i fully acknowledge that sansa's treasures (both meanings!) are most definitely top of mind for tyrion. however, he genuinely wants to be a good husband to her and with tyrion being everyone's darling, her rebuffal will make her even more disliked. i also don't agree that planning to escape counts as a divorce. she had no idea that tyrion wouldn't insist on consummation so at best, shecould only hope to become too difficult to get to.

as for sandor, yes, he has been softened. greatly softened. i don't think its to make it easier for sansan to occur (i believe sansa's mis-memory is more a reflection of her trauma than her affections) but yes, the way things stand now, it would be easier to accept. but given that we have only seen him in the role of protector and not witnessed any of the repressed feelings he might have for her (he only talks about it when he's drunk) i don't see the series suddenly springing up a romance between the two when they meet in the future (which i don't doubt will happen). it will be interesting to see how they show her faulty memory now and i am VERY curious to know why she needs to have these wrong memories.

[jons nissa]

oh, i forgot about this:

Wouter, on 30 May 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

(I do see a possibility of Tyrion as king in the end and then Sansa is the most likely queen).

i never thought of tyrion as king. i don't know...as much as martin loves him i'm not sure he could create a scenario where that felt natural. but i fully expect him to become lord of casterly rock. tywin fought it too much methinks. but i do believe there's been tons of foreshadowing of sansa as a queen so who knows.

BlueQueen, on 30 May 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

  A point that many people seem to be missing with the Tyrion and Sansa conversation in episode 9 is that she is sincere when she speaks to Tyrion. In the book she does actually pray for him and because this is a thought, GRRM had her speak it instead for the show. There is no doubt when she turns that she is being spontaneous and saying something true. She has no reason to add that comment to him and yet she does. Her expression also seems to be genuine. It is only after she has said this and the viewer can now see Joff on screen behind her that she adds the bit about praying for the king which of course is necessary like all of her lies in KL. Her expression, which only Tyrion and Shae can see indicates that she is lying where the king is concerned. Tyrion and Sansa certainly understand that she lies about her feelings for the king with their scene in episode 4. Tyrion also does not look hurt when she says the added bit about Joff because he understands the game and the need for such lies.

i've heard this before and must admit it sounds interesting. i will have to rewatch and see if i can detect a change in her delivery.

Edited by jon's nissa, 31 May 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[Pellaeon]

jon, on 31 May 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

i never thought of tyrion as king. i don't know...as much as martin loves him i'm not sure he could create a scenario where that felt natural. but i fully expect him to become lord of casterly rock. tywin fought it too much methinks. but i do believe there's been tons of foreshadowing of sansa as a queen so who knows.

I always pictured Tyrion as hand but maybe he will become king of the westerlands (in the unlikely scenario with 7 kingdoms in the end)

[Lady Sansa Stark]

jon, on 31 May 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

oh, i forgot about this:



i never thought of tyrion as king. i don't know...as much as martin loves him i'm not sure he could create a scenario where that felt natural. but i fully expect him to become lord of casterly rock. tywin fought it too much methinks. but i do believe there's been tons of foreshadowing of sansa as a queen so who knows.




i've heard this before and must admit it sounds interesting. i will have to rewatch and see if i can detect a change in her delivery.

I detected this too, but I don't think viewers or even Tyrion will understand. It was quite clear to me, maybe because something similar happened in the books as previously mentioned, but still..

[BlueQueen]

I think it's interesting how most viewers don't even consider the possibility that her words were not an f you to Tyrion. Show Tyrion especially has given her no cause to wish him the same fate as Joff and for those people who have read the book, they know that it is canon to pray for him because she does in the sept.

[Rhaquentis]

However well Tyrion treats her, she will remain cold towards him. She still does not trust any Lannister and is being extra cautious around them (as was shown in the scene where she said she would pray for him, as she would for Joffrey -ironic).

Edited by Rhaquentis, 31 May 2012 - 05:58 PM.