[Book Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

The viewers of this show do know how young Sansa is. They saw her first period on the show. Which can't missed considering is horrible the deal was for Sansa. Plus Sansa tells her age to Tyrion during the scene. She is fourteen in the tv-show still very young and underage by Westeros laws. Plus the viewers would project their "21 century" view on this show, and be horrified.

Dany is 14, and we see her naked in the show. that is because the actress who plays her is over 18, and can be shown naked. the actress who plays Sansa is only 16 in real life. the reason they won't show her naked isn't because 21st century views, but because it is illegal to show her naked.

[SecretNegative]

Plus the viewers would project their "21 century" view on this show, and be horrified.

Yeah, becuase incest, murder, rape, decapitation is totally in line with a "21 centure" view...

The viewers have seen Craster who marries his own daughters, they'll stick through a naked 16 year old.

That being said, the reason they won't show Sansa naked is because the actress is 16 and that would be illegal.

[Khal Porno]

Well, in the book Sansa is not yet thirteen while Tyrion is about 25 or 26. in HBO we have a tall strong young woman and a man in his early thirties.

I think it will be indeed the body language that has to speak.

In that so very embarrassing scene Tyrion is as insecure as a 16 year old bravely awaiting his first sex like an ordeal and Sansa is trembling from fear while at the same time trying to do her alleged duty as wife. It is her who suggests to undress herself, simply because she thinks this is done that way.

So in the movie they will have to capture how Sansa is humiliated by her attempt to do what is expected of her. Then they have Tyrion's boner, that cannot be shown. It has been introduced by Martin to show that Tyrion desires Sansa despite not wanting so and that Tyrion consciously refrains from consummation although being aroused, making it a moral decision and not a decision out of indifference. So here they will be forced to make the big mistake of "tell, not show". Obviously, no frontal nude shot of Dinklage :( .

And then there is Sansa's inner monologue where she reflects about Tyrion's ugliness in every cruel detail, how visualize her disgust (a small amusing aspect in all that sadness is the fact that her desription of Tyrion's erection is physiologically quite accurate: if a penis at work matches the description of "beautiful" can be discussed :) . And Sansa may never have seen an erect penis before. But probably precisely this part of Tyrion's anatomy is indeed like any other man's) In which way can they visualize Sansa's disgust for Tyrion's body?

So how to show the deep humiliation of both, how to capture that?

Haha I love this post. Anyway, in regards to how the show can convey the awkwardness, sadness, revulsion, shame, etc that occurs during Tyrion and Sansa's wedding night without actual nudity; the answer is "quite easily." I think that even if Sophie Turner were not a minor, it will be much more effective to imply the nudity and focus on the performances of the actors to convey all of those emotions. Peter Dinklage and Sophie Turner have proven themselves to be more than capable of conveying this to the audience.

A talented director (and there are several working on this show) will be able to easily film them in such a way where it APPEARS they are naked, when they are not. It could be done in a very elegant and beautiful fashion, with tight camera angles to emphasize the awkwardness, and make it feel like there's no room for the characters to escape.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Yeah, becuase incest, murder, rape, decapitation is totally in line with a "21 centure" view...

The viewers have seen Craster who marries his own daughters, they'll stick through a naked 16 year old.

That being said, the reason they won't show Sansa naked is because the actress is 16 and that would be illegal.

I have never stated that Sansa should be nude in the scene. I said that the viewers of this the tv-show know how young Sansa is, because we saw her first period that was pretty horrifying for Sansa. They remember her age which is fourteen.

[mi recuerdo en tus ojos]

I am really looking forward to this plot - sad, heart-breaking and uncomfortable as it will be - because I think the actors will be fantastic in it and we need some interesting Lannister shenanigans in Kings Landing in S3, as I suspect all of the most interesting stuff (the purple wedding, Jaime's return, Tyrion's imprisonment, etc) will be left for S4. I also think the dynamic between Tyrion, Shae and Sansa is going to be much more interesting in the show, as they've established some measure of sympathy and understanding between the two women, and Shae seems to have feelings for Tyrion but still doesn't mind telling him off to his face.

I doubt there will be nudity, though, because of the actress' age. Then again, I was surprised (and horrified) that the attempted rape scene went on as long as it did considering how old Sophie Turner was when they shot it, so there you go...

[willowbark]

I am really looking forward to this plot - sad, heart-breaking and uncomfortable as it will be - because I think the actors will be fantastic in it and we need some interesting Lannister shenanigans in Kings Landing in S3, as I suspect all of the most interesting stuff (the purple wedding, Jaime's return, Tyrion's imprisonment, etc) will be left for S4. I also think the dynamic between Tyrion, Shae and Sansa is going to be much more interesting in the show, as they've established some measure of sympathy and understanding between the two women, and Shae seems to have feelings for Tyrion but still doesn't mind telling him off to his face.

I doubt there will be nudity, though, because of the actress' age. Then again, I was surprised (and horrified) that the attempted rape scene went on as long as it did considering how old Sophie Turner was when they shot it, so there you go...

Maybe they'll have Tyrion start to distance himself from Shae once he has his pretty well-born wife, and maybe that will set up for Shae's betrayal later.

Maybe they'll show Shae resenting any warmth shown between the wedded couple, that could also lead to this.

Maybe Tyrion will distance himself from Sansa in a way to try to remain true to his love for Shae.

Maybe Sansa will discover Tyrion and Shae in action, and that would be a way to explain her being distant from him in the show (for all those fans that don't think the Lannister angle, age difference, unwanted surprise wedding, or death of Robb, Catelyn, and Ned are enough).

But either way, I think that the relationships between these three might very nicely work to set up some of the later behaviors.

[Catelyn's Treacherous Womb]

They definitely don't need to show the actors naked bodies in the scene to get across that they are nude or almost nude - e.g. Sansa partially trying to cover herself with a blanket - and I hope they don't just have them sitting there fully dressed since it takes away from how Sansa was feeling, thinking that in a few moments she was going to be forced by him.

I'm a bit nervous about how this storyline will be played out, tbh.

I really hope they keep in the part where The Tyrell women meet with Sansa to discuss Joffrey (it'd be awful if they talk with Ros instead). If they still have them tell Sansa they want to have her marry Willas, they might just replace him with Loras instead of having to "introduce" a new character.

[Nezzer]

They didn't have a problem showing Sansa almost being raped. They will probably do just like in the book, only without nudity.

[Draco_Dracul]

Dany is 14, and we see her naked in the show. that is because the actress who plays her is over 18, and can be shown naked. the actress who plays Sansa is only 16 in real life. the reason they won't show her naked isn't because 21st century views, but because it is illegal to show her naked.

Show Dany was either 16-17 in the first season. But otherwise you are correct. They won't show Sansa nude because they can't show Sophie Turner nude.

[Ty3009]

The show can still convey some of the horrible awkwardness of the wedding night without having Sophie Turner or Peter Dinklage naked.

Honestly, the majority of viewers will be sympathizing with Tyrion in this situation. That seems unavoidable considering his popularity. Most people never consider Sansa's side, books or show. The unfortunate reality is that she's most often written off as a bitch. I wouldn't mind if the cloak exchange bit was cut to lessen Sansa's spitefulness, however justified. I think a scene with the two of them alone in the bedroom could be very textured and balanced if it's played right. Emilia Clarke's portrayal of Dany in S1E01 before her first time with Drogo seems like a good model (without the nudity of course).

[The Dragon has three heads]

The plot to marry sansa to tyron will be tywins notion. And really, the nudity argument is moot, Sansa will be a bitch, tyrion will not fuck her because she doesn't want him too, tht will be enough. He has shae. So when she's taken from him, by tywin, the plots moves forward.

I think the murder of shae will be the tipping point here.

In the show she is portrayed as FAR more intelligent and likable.

She's not obsessed with her gold and silks as book shae is and seems to care for tyrion.

Even if she testifies against him, I can't see him killing her, I believe tywin will do that. And that will be the final straw.

[Mladen]

First, let we clear things up about nudity. Sophie Turner is 16, it`s illegal, and I can`t imagine that anyone sane would want her to do that. For some reason, I believe that also we won`t see Dinklage nude too. But, that doesn`t mean that scene in bed couldn`t be done properly.

The bigger issue here is that I believe fans will continue hating Sansa for her refusal. And that`s idiotic. I agree with anyone stating that Tyrion is also her enemy, yes he is kinder to her, he doesn`t beat her, but that doesn`t change things. Problem here is that Dinklage`s Tyrion is even more popular than GRRM`s Tyrion. And when Sansa refuse the only ideal character of the show, she will be the quilty party in that.

At the end, Turner and Dinklage are two impressive actors, and it would be shame not to use their talent to depict Tyrion/Sansa storyarc in the best way...

[starkalways]

Idk if you have seen season 2 deleted scenes but there is one between them. And it aggrivates me! To sum it up, it makes Tyrion look even better.

With how everything in the show is going it seems like Sansa will look more of a bitch for refusing Tyroin.

I know people who haven't read the books and they still hate Sansa. One person even said she betrayed her father, when they removed that whole scene from the show. I just can't stand the fact that with the way everything is going in the show, it will seem like she should be so grateful she got the kind dwarf.

The whole marriage is the one time we actually see Sansa make statement about her situation. She may not outright say it or throw a huge fit. But she refuses to kneel, for someone who is passive that is a huge thing. And now I'm afraid she will be demonized for it or worse she won't do it on the show.

[Raksha the Demon]

Idk if you have seen season 2 deleted scenes but there is one between them. And it aggrivates me! To sum it up, it makes Tyrion look even better.

With how everything in the show is going it seems like Sansa will look more of a bitch for refusing Tyroin.

I know people who haven't read the books and they still hate Sansa. One person even said she betrayed her father, when they removed that whole scene from the show. I just can't stand the fact that with the way everything is going in the show, it will seem like she should be so grateful she got the kind dwarf.

The whole marriage is the one time we actually see Sansa make statement about her situation. She may not outright say it or throw a huge fit. But she refuses to kneel, for someone who is passive that is a huge thing. And now I'm afraid she will be demonized for it or worse she won't do it on the show.

They could, and I hope they do, use Shae's presence as Sansa's maid and confidante; to explain Sansa's attitude towards Tyrion. Not knowing that Shae and Tyrion love each other; newly married Sansa could tell Shae that although Tyrion tries to be kind, he is still a Lannister; and his family destroyed hers; she cannot ever love or want him.

When reading the books, we could see Sansa's thoughts; and know it was not Tyrion's size and ugliness that was the only reason the marriage so upset her - she did not want to marry a Lannister. Plus, she did try to look at Tyrion as a man and potential lover; and she could not, did not, feel that way about him. We won't know that in the show unless she tells someone; book-Sansa kept quiet and did not dare trust Tyrion with her true feelings.

I have the feeling that the Tyrion/Sansa marriage will be used in the show to cause Shae to doubt Tyrion and then to be angry at him and eventually give false testimony at his trial.

Sansa is slightly less likeable (to me) in the TV show because, considering that she is two years older (and looks older than that in Season 2, Miss Turner being a tall girl who is physically maturing at a fast rate), there is less excuse for her acting so whiny with Arya and being so naive. Book Sansa was only 11 in AGOT; it was understandable to me why she trusted Cersei and Joffrey, and went over Ned's head to get Cersei to allow her to stay at court...

[Newstar]

They could, and I hope they do, use Shae's presence as Sansa's maid and confidante; to explain Sansa's attitude towards Tyrion. Not knowing that Shae and Tyrion love each other; newly married Sansa could tell Shae that although Tyrion tries to be kind, he is still a Lannister; and his family destroyed hers; she cannot ever love or want him.

I suspect that if the writers want Sansa to come across as sympathetic or prevent viewer resentment towards Sansa due to this plot, they will rely heavily on the angle of Tyrion cooperating with the Lannisters to make a land grab for Winterfell and ambushing Sansa with the marriage as Wouter described upthread as well as Sansa being terrified (of rape, of Joffrey, of Tyrion trapping her into uttering treason, etc. etc.) and being unable to trust any Lannisters (with probably some bonus harassment/abuse by Joffrey that lends urgency to Sansa's desperation to escape King's Landing), rather than on Tyrion's looks. It's not exactly going to endear viewers to TV Sansa if she's pouring her heart out to Shae about how repulsive and ugly her husband is, especially when TV Tyrion is neither of these things. Also, even if she's totally justified in not being thrilled about being married to a dwarf, in today's modern age where we're particularly sensitive to prejudice against people with disabilities, it's not going to make Sansa look good if she's crying her eyes out about the horrors of being married to a dwarf. The optics aren't great.

I suppose they could also go the route of stressing the huge age gap between the actors portraying Tyrion and Sansa (26 years, almost exactly double what the age gap is in the books).

I have the feeling that the Tyrion/Sansa marriage will be used in the show to cause Shae to doubt Tyrion and then to be angry at him and eventually give false testimony at his trial.

Agreed. I see a lot of speculation that Shae, due to her friendship with Sansa and sisterly protective feelings towards her, will turn on Tyrion because of his acquiescence to the marriage, but that seems unlikely to me. I rather expect that unlike in the books, Shae will be motivated by anger towards Tyrion caused by resentment and jealousy.

Sansa is slightly less likeable (to me) in the TV show because, considering that she is two years older (and looks older than that in Season 2, Miss Turner being a tall girl who is physically maturing at a fast rate), there is less excuse for her acting so whiny with Arya and being so naive. Book Sansa was only 11 in AGOT; it was understandable to me why she trusted Cersei and Joffrey, and went over Ned's head to get Cersei to allow her to stay at court...

I find TV Sansa more likeable, personally, but I agree that a lot of things that seem understandable for an 11-year-old/12-year-old make absolutely no sense for a teenager who looks older than her age by virtue of her height.

The whole marriage is the one time we actually see Sansa make statement about her situation. She may not outright say it or throw a huge fit. But she refuses to kneel, for someone who is passive that is a huge thing. And now I'm afraid she will be demonized for it or worse she won't do it on the show.

I think the cloak exchange (which is what Sansa refuses to kneel to do) will actually be scrapped: it's complicated to explain, the Robb/Talisa wedding featured a form of handfasting rather than a cloak exchange, etc. etc. She could always refuse to kneel for the kiss, I suppose, but that could almost make Sansa look worse.

With how everything in the show is going it seems like Sansa will look more of a bitch for refusing Tyroin.

I think to a certain extent it's unavoidable, given that Sansa's rejection is partly based upon her inability to be attracted to a guy who struck her as the ugliest man she'd ever seen even before he lost the nose, and TV Tyrion is played by an actor who is not ugly (and whose nose they couldn't remove without lots of CGI). To counterbalance that, the writers can lean on Tyrion's less-than-noble actions in agreeing to the marriage and helping railroad Sansa into it (as Wouter described on page 2 of this thread), as well as Sansa's loss of freedom, her horror at being married into the Lannisters, her terror of being raped, Joffrey's continued threats, etc. etc. Whether they'll choose to do that, or whether it will just be written straight up as Tyrion as the wronged, nobly suffering party and Sansa as the prejudiced, shallow bitch who refuses him, I guess remains to be seen.

Problem here is that Dinklage`s Tyrion is even more popular than GRRM`s Tyrion. And when Sansa refuse the only ideal character of the show, she will be the quilty party in that.

Bingo. There are ways around it (as I said earlier in this post), but that's at the heart of it. If a character rejects the audience favourite romantically, no matter what his/her reasons, that character is going to attract a lot of audience ire.

[Petyr Baller]

I suspect they'll rework those scenes a bit.

In the book, it's perfectly understandable that a 14 year old girl who's a hostage of the Lannisters, who by the way have killed most of her immediate family, would be repulsed by the ugliest man in the Seven Kingdoms whom she was forced to marry. It just seems downright rude to refuse Peter Dinklage though. His Tyrion is quite dashing, and as others have pointed out, the show has taken away some of his hard edge.

[Nuttz]

I think the best way to go would be to focus on Tyrion's motivations for the wedding, as most have already said. Since his loss of power in the finale of last season, he's going to be looking for ways to retain some. The prospect of Winterfell would be a very nice one for him, so I think this would begin his downward spiral (which will obviously take place over many seasons).

[King Tommen]

Because of the Shae-Sansa relationship that has been built up on the show (which does not exist in the books nearly to this degree), they could have Shae (once the Tyrion-Sansa betrothal is agreed to) tell Sansa the nature of her secret affair with Tyrion. Knowing this would make Sansa even more reluctant to follow through on the marriage to Tyrion. Shae could either be devastated or make her feel extremely guilty for "betraying" their friendship.

You're also going to have Tyrion making a clear decision to forgo his happiness with Shae in order to remain obedient to his father and more importantly to pursue the power this alliance leads to. It's not an overly sympathetic choice.

There's a lot of way to make Sansa come out looking ok out of all of this, especially when she's going to have the rug pulled out from the proposed Loras marriage (someone she's infatuated with and who would get her out of the Lannister clutches).

[Woman of War]

I think the best way to go would be to focus on Tyrion's motivations for the wedding, as most have already said. Since his loss of power in the finale of last season, he's going to be looking for ways to retain some. The prospect of Winterfell would be a very nice one for him, so I think this would begin his downward spiral (which will obviously take place over many seasons).

HBO cannot come close to explaining the complex mixture of motivations Tyrion had for going along with the Sansa marriage since they never told the truth about Tysha in the movies. Tyrion's motivations are far more complicated than wanting Winterfell. There is Tysha and his illusion of finding that happiness again. And not "consummating" the marriage to Sansa is Tyrion's refusal to rape again at his father's command. And HBO somehow has to transport Sansa's non-refusal of going along with the bedding when the child tries to be the dutiful wife, tries to do what is expected of her, considers opening her legs, humiliating herself by undressing herself, just as Tyrion does.

Butterfly effect: once they have left out an important part they have to write their way around it. Btu maybe the so much more interesting Shae is worth all those changes.

[Newstar]

I don't think the writers will really go very far for the wedding night in terms of showing anything, but I was surprised at how far they went in the attempted gang rape scene in 2x06, so what the writers imply will be a whole other kettle of fish.

I think the best way to go would be to focus on Tyrion's motivations for the wedding, as most have already said. Since his loss of power in the finale of last season, he's going to be looking for ways to retain some. The prospect of Winterfell would be a very nice one for him, so I think this would begin his downward spiral (which will obviously take place over many seasons).

I guess the problem with focusing on Tyrion's less than noble motivations would involve writing Tyrion in a negative (or even less than 100% positive) light, and the writers have shown themselves extremely reluctant to do that to date (weirdly, since gray/dark-gray protagonists are all the rage these days: Don Draper from Mad Men, Walter White on Breaking Bad, etc. etc.). I know they have to start doing it at some point if they want to stick to the books, as Tyrion's actions at the end of ASOS (murdering Shae and Tywin) are going to require it, but their pattern in the previous two seasons is not super reassuring.

I also believe they won't risk to make Tyrion a bad guy, they build him up as a moral man in this season, they wont risk the non-bookreader love for him.

If that's true, though, and the writers want to keep Tyrion as a white hat (or at least a light grey hat), TV Tyrion's arc is going to diverge more and more from his book version's. That's up to them, I guess, but it's going to be trickier and trickier to write.

I would also like to see Tyrion's drunk or fakedrunk efforts to avoid the bedding ceremony, after it been made clear how Joffrey would have enjoyed it, the king's vulgarity, the aggressions, Tyrion's dangerous knifegame and threat (later used in the trial against him) and his dirty jokes to get out of the room. This could be a highlight for the actors Dinklage and Gleeson.

This might be a vain hope, but I really, really hope the whole business of bedding is excised from the show.

Shae is treated differently in public by Tyrion and there's a bit of a jealousy in the way he calls Sansa "My Lady" and pretends to not even know who Shae is.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. Setup for Season 3, maybe. I also noticed Sansa smirking a little when he seemed to confuse Shae's name. It was probably just the actress adding a bit of colour, but I kind of hope there's a reveal at some point in Season 3 that Sansa figured out the truth about Shae and Tyrion some time ago.