409 replies to this topic

[Mulled Wino]

Ciazio, on 08 June 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

If you read carefully Reek's chapters you'll notice that no one recognizes Theon at first glance after the "Reek-cure" given to him by Ramsay.

Spoiler

In Theon gift chapter even Asha isn't able to recognize him at once. Remember that she recognized him after 8 years (from 8 to 16 years old) when he went back to Pyke by Robb's order.

Accordingly to this fact, the Hooded Man MUST be someone who has already seen Theon after the fall of Winterfell because recognizes Theon by just looking in his eyes, thus exluding Crowfood and many other northeners from the game.

Recapping, it could only be:

• some Bolton's man from the Dreadfort
  
• an Ironborn from Moat Cailin
  
• a Northener from the "new" Winterfell occupied by Bolton
  
• Theon himself (Theon Durden)

Do you agree with me?

The Karstarks and Umbers saw Reek at the dreadfort.  The Glovers and WH folks probably at least know what to look for.  

[Mulled Wino]

Ciazio, on 08 June 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Glover knows that Bran and Rickon are alive thanks to Theon's squire (Wex Pyke): he wouldn't have called him kinslayer.



Well, yeah. I have no evidences that can't be your way. But I have evidences that could be my way.

Are there any evidence that there are wargs or greenseers in the North other than the Starks children? IIRC we have not.

I'm reasoning on the base of what we know and/or assume from the books. If you want to imagine I can even say that the HM is the ghost of Ned bringed back in Winterfell by Benjen (who was hiding in the crypts) by the mighty of the magic and ancient word "hodor".

Glover certainly can call him kinslayer. Why would Glover blow his cover for theon?  That would just be stupid.

[Dolorous Ali]

Ciazio, on 08 June 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Well, yeah. I have no evidences that can't be your way. But I have evidences that could be my way.

Are there any evidence that there are wargs or greenseers in the North other than the Starks children? IIRC we have not.

I'm reasoning on the base of what we know and/or assume from the books. If you want to imagine I can even say that the HM is the ghost of Ned bringed back in Winterfell by Benjen (who was hiding in the crypts) by the mighty of the magic and ancient word "hodor".

LOL! Hodor! But seriously, Jojen Reed has the ability to greendream. Why not another Crannogman? There are many who could pass for the HM. And I'm not saying just as  wishful thinking or imagination. Theon himself would be very acceptable, but an iron born from Moat Cailin is not. Why would one iron born be at winterfell? They don't wanna be away from the sea. Even if Theon killed all the iron borns from Moat Cailin he wouldn't be a kinslayer. If he was, then any north man who kills Ramsay or Roose would be kinslayer as well, which is very ridiculous. And it's not like the iron born cared so much for the Starks to tell Theon that he's slayed his own kin. But the other possibilities you mentioned I agree with.

[bemused]

The use of kinslayer ,I think, must identify the HM as a Northerner ( or Theon, if you buy that theory ). True , the spearwives use it , but they've been nosing around WF long enough to have heard others use it , and for that matter, Mance himself witnessed Theon being treated pretty much as an adopted son ( on public occasions , shown more deference than Jon) and might have told them as much.

I don't know why people assume Benjen ( or even any of those who served with Robb ) would endanger his position , and possible mission by killing Theon on sight. I believe they would be smarter than that , however much contempt they might feel for him.

[bloodymime]

Theon would know and recognize Benjen, if anything it would endanger his position more leaving Theon alive to tell tales whereas Theon dead would just be another corpse joining the crowd.

[Dolorous Ali]

@Ciazio: Well, since the forum doesn't let me edit (don't know why), I'll say this in a new post.
Starks are not the only ones. As I said Crannogmen can. Also, BR is not a Stark either. Varamyr Sixskins was not a Stark. IIRC, bear islanders could warg as well. Being a Stark is not the requirement for warging/green dreaming. But it seems having the blood of the first men is a requirement, which makes it possible for other northmen to be the HM. Although I have to admit there's something awry abou the Stark children, because most of them (maybe even all) are wargs, while its said to be a rare thing. Oh, and if you still don't believe me and think being a Stark is the only way, know that Stark and Karstark are kin, so there could be someone loyal amongst them with this ability (I don't think it's a Karstark BTW).

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

bloodymime, on 08 June 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

"No man is as accursed as the kinslayer."

"The kinslayer is accursed in the eyes of gods and men"

Kinslaying is right up there with violation of guest right and I personally don't agree it could be used as a expletive supported by the fact that there isn't one instance of talk of kinslaying I can find that even comes close to taking it lightly or falsely insulting. For that matter I can't remember any time of bastard being used as an insult to anyone but actual bastards either. Can you provide an example from the books?

Kinslaying also wouldn't even come close to being used to describe Moat Cailin. Kinslaying is kin slaying, actual family. Nobody would see that as Theon betraying family.

To me all this suggests its use as an expletive, the worst thing you can call someone. If we heard it before isn't really relevant, think of our language and it involves those worst things as curses. I'm not able to do those word count searches or look up these things on comp.

But.

I am trying to forge some ideas, a lot of ifs are being used as truths in this discussion, I don't think we can irrevocably say kinslaying doesn't serve that function in Westerosi language. I know M-F****er is a pretty bad thing for us to call each other but it is often used when people aren't in fact MFs.

I think Theon's act of convincing the Ironborn to surrender, which results in Ramsay destroying them (No one would know Theon wasn't expecting that to happening), is consistent with the betrayal aspects of kinslaying. As I think also informs Manderleys own view of the Boltons, betrayers, oath-breakers etc.

Also, if your correct that no one would use it if it weren't actual kinslaying, then why is it being used for Theon when he did not actually kill his kin? Just a formality that he isn't actually related to the Starks? If we are viewing them as the kin he slayed. Is he is viewed by everyone else as a Stark, aside from the Starks and himself?

If it were him, Glover did not actually blow his cover, he ran into Theon, drew his knife and decided there were more important things to be doing.

Edited by Ser Elvin of Clymer, 08 June 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[jon rr stark]

Ser Elvin of Clymer, on 08 June 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

To me all this suggests its use as an expletive, the worst thing you can call someone. If we heard it before isn't really relevant, think of our language and it involves those worst things as curses. I'm not able to do those word count searches or look up these things on comp.

But.

I am trying to forge some ideas, a lot of ifs are being used as truths in this discussion, I don't think we can irrevocably say kinslaying doesn't serve that function in Westerosi language. I know M-F****er is a pretty bad thing for us to call each other but it is often used when people aren't in fact MFs.

I think Theon's act of convincing the Ironborn to surrender, which results in Ramsay destroying them (No one would know Theon wasn't expecting that to happening), is consistent with the betrayal aspects of kinslaying. As I think also informs Manderleys own view of the Boltons, betrayers, oath-breakers etc.

Also, if your correct that no one would use it if it weren't actual kinslaying, then why is it being used for Theon when he did not actually kill his kin? Just a formality that he isn't actually related to the Starks? If we are viewing them as the kin he slayed. Is he is viewed by everyone else as a Stark, aside from the Starks and himself?

If it were him, Glover did not actually blow his cover, he ran into Theon, drew his knife and decided there were more important things to be doing.

Wouldnt Theon recognise most if not all of the of the northern lords and their close family from various visits to winterfell over the years which would rule out Glover. There was no indication that Theon recognised the hooded man. It could just be a winterfell man of no great importance. Indeed if it was any noteworthy northman who wasn't loyal to bolton he couldnt just be wandering around winterfell as they would be recognised edventually. By speaking to theon they are making their presence known and taking the risk that theon will say something to ramsey or bolton. But it seems clear that it is someone who knows who theon is rather than recognised him from his appearence.

[Aluminum Link]

Ciazio, on 08 June 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Glover knows that Bran and Rickon are alive thanks to Theon's squire (Wex Pyke): he wouldn't have called him kinslayer.

It's worth noting that in the first two HM threads there was a theory floating around that the younger of the two millers sons was actually Theon's, in which case he is in fact a kinslayer. The only evidence for this is that Theon admits to having slept with her.

Quote

The two we killed were just some miller’s sons. Theon did not want to think about their mother. He had known the miller’s wife for years, had even
bedded her.

Now, if you buy that theory then the question becomes how anyone (including the HM) could know about it when even Theon does not.

The only theory I've seen that explains that is that the HM is The Stranger incarnate (i.e. Death himself). He's come to Winterfell to either claim Theon and end his miserable existence or there simply because death hangs heavy over Winterfell (because of the fighting on the inside, the oncoming winter and the impending battle).

ETA: The dialogue and especially the laugh actually fit very well when you read the scene with this in mind.

Edited by Aluminum Link, 08 June 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[bemused]

If Theon ( preoccupied with ghosts ) saw someone who was generally assumed to be dead , such as Benjen , or perhaps Harwin , or someone who disappeared at the time of the Red Wedding..then it would pretty safe to assume that if Theon did mention him, he wouldn't be believed. And Theon doesn't mention him, even though he's being accused himself, even though he wonders if this could be the killer. The two ideas can be seen to reinforce each other .

Lady Barbrey does intervene a little prematurely when Theon is being questioned. I've always thought the lady doth protest too much in her "I hate the Starks" routine. Maybe Ned's bones have made it through , maybe at least word that Robb's document exists has made it through ( if not it's contents ).. Alysanne Mormont seems to know where her mother and sisters are, or at least that they weren't all at the RW, and she doesn't appear to be worried that they've disappeared... Lady Barbrey may know very well that someone is hiding out in WF, and who that someone is. She knows that Theon wanders about ,perhaps she wants him out of there in case he has seen anyone he shouldn't. She's been planting her stories with Theon ( hatred of Starks , disdain of maesters ), and sizing him up at the same time.

Hmmm... OT , does this identify another candidate for author of the letter ?

Edited by bemused, 08 June 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[The Wood of the Morning]

Every POV chapter is titled after the character it is about, I always figured that its a fight club situation and Theon is the ghost.

[redriver]

I really don't think there's enough evidence to identify the HM at this point.

It wouldn't come as a huge surprise if it's Theon Durden but I can't go for Davos or any of the Umbers.

The Liddle is an outsider,but logistically possible.Maybe one of the Stark ghosts.

Reading the Theon POV's in ADWD.I can't find anything definitive.

Maybe the answer is in another POV or in another book.

[Aluminum Link]

The Wood of the Morning, on 08 June 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Every POV chapter is titled after the character it is about, I always figured that its a fight club situation and Theon is the ghost.

That chapter title is just a reference to how Theon sees himself.

Quote

There are ghosts in Winterfell, he thought, and I am one of them.

[Aluminum Link]

redriver, on 08 June 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

I really don't think there's enough evidence to identify the HM at this point.

Definitely not, but what else are we going to do to pass the years between books

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

jon rr stark, on 08 June 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Wouldnt Theon recognise most if not all of the of the northern lords and their close family from various visits to winterfell over the years which would rule out Glover. There was no indication that Theon recognised the hooded man. It could just be a winterfell man of no great importance. Indeed if it was any noteworthy northman who wasn't loyal to bolton he couldnt just be wandering around winterfell as they would be recognised edventually. By speaking to theon they are making their presence known and taking the risk that theon will say something to ramsey or bolton. But it seems clear that it is someone who knows who theon is rather than recognised him from his appearence.

I don't agree, to me it read as HM recognized him after running into him (but I do agree that he knows Theon by sight) his hand reaches to his dagger, then he recognizes him and asks "why he breathes", and its not clear if Theons knows HM or not.
He treats him w/ familiarity by showing his hand but is otherwise vague (which is not the case w/ all the other people Theon sees in his chapters) for me that neither establishes or eliminates Theons recognition, but I don't think he is showing the nubs to just anybody he runs into.
I think Theon would recognize Glover from Robb's army for sure. But, I think enough has been left out of that conversation to make it unclear if Theon recognized HM (that is certainly where the ghost theories make sense, someone he doesn't believe is alive & would be unthreatening)

[Mulled Wino]

jon rr stark, on 08 June 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Wouldnt Theon recognise most if not all of the of the northern lords and their close family from various visits to winterfell over the years which would rule out Glover. There was no indication that Theon recognised the hooded man. It could just be a winterfell man of no great importance. Indeed if it was any noteworthy northman who wasn't loyal to bolton he couldnt just be wandering around winterfell as they would be recognised edventually. By speaking to theon they are making their presence known and taking the risk that theon will say something to ramsey or bolton. But it seems clear that it is someone who knows who theon is rather than recognised him from his appearence.

He didnt recognize a few of the northern lords at the dreadfort if I remember correctly.

[bloodymime]

He doesn't recognize Whoresbane or Karstark but they have seen him before. Whoresbane is first to recognize him and with a little prompting Karstark does as well so they've both seen him before.

The second lord, the straight-backed old man in the mail byrnie, studied Reek with flinty eyes. “Look again,” he urged the other lord. “His hair’s gone white and he is three stone thinner, aye, but this is no serving man. Have you forgotten?”

The crookback lord looked again and gave a sudden snort. “Him? Can it be? Stark’s ward. Smiling, always smiling.”

[Dolorous Ali]

The Wood of the Morning, on 08 June 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Every POV chapter is titled after the character it is about, I always figured that its a fight club situation and Theon is the ghost.

Do you remember "the sacrifice"? It was Asha's chapter, but she wasn't the sacrifice. Plus the ghost of Winterfell doesn't have to be the HM.

Edited by Dolorous Ali, 11 June 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[Mulled Wino]

bloodymime, on 08 June 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

He doesn't recognize Whoresbane or Karstark but they have seen him before. Whoresbane is first to recognize him and with a little prompting Karstark does as well so they've both seen him before.

The second lord, the straight-backed old man in the mail byrnie, studied Reek with flinty eyes. “Look again,” he urged the other lord. “His hair’s gone white and he is three stone thinner, aye, but this is no serving man. Have you forgotten?”

The crookback lord looked again and gave a sudden snort. “Him? Can it be? Stark’s ward. Smiling, always smiling.”

Thats true.  And exactly what i posted about 10 posts ago at the top of this page.

The Karstarks and Umbers would recognize theon, which is contrary to what someone posted as only dreadfort or ironborn or others in the castle would recognize him.

Then someone posted that Thein would
recognize all the Northern lords because of his time with the Starks, which is also false because he didnt recognize Arnolf and Whoresbane at the Dreadfort.

[IKE]

Correct, the chapters are not necessarily named after the POV, but are 90% of the time.  At the very least, the Chapter names in Dance reinforce the narrative of that chapter.

A Ghost in Winterfell follows after the Turncloak chapter.. Turncloak chapter consist of Theon's first visit to the heartwood, Why did I come here?  These are not my gods. He hears Jeyne (or Bran?) weeping.  There are ghost in Winterfell, Theon thought.  And I am one of them.  That line concludes that chapter.  Hence the following chapter, A Ghost in Winterfell, being having that name.