409 replies to this topic

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

Yeah, for some reason a lot of people are crediting Theon as a reliable POV, he even evolves over the chapters), obviously not the "Fight Club" theorists, but he has a lot on his mind, suffered torture & humiliation.
Even though I don't agree he has multiple personalities, that idea doesn't seem far-fetched to me.
He is not reliable and most of GRRM POVs aren't.
But in this part GRRM clearly under-describes HM, and we have attached that he is the killer which Theon wonders but is not a definite, he is under-described (aside from hood, words & dagger) when everyone one else is.
Is that because Theon is surprised, its snowing & night, the hood conceals him to much, Theon's mind is a little crazy as it shifts back into Theon from Reek?

A lot of the suggestions don't really make it on the story telling side, for me, like Davos I want to see him find Rickon & Osha (I guess both could happen in a time-overlap), being the HM at Winterfell doesn't seem to be as exciting as that other aspect of the story and the information (if he accomplishes the task) would be too valuable (he goes to Winterfell to sneak in & tell Manderly? or believes Stannis has already won? - to the Wall my friend! Though the Wall blows now to, but Davos won't know it). But still, Davos could be the HM.

Theon however you view the HM, is pretty unreliable as a witness.

[IKE]

It's not just a matter of multiple personalities, (Reek VS Theon), instead it is the same conflict Theon had since his first POV books ago.  Is he Theon Greyjoy or Theon Stark?

In the crypts with Lady Dustin:

Quote

"Why do you love the Starks?","I wanted to be one.","And never could."

This is the summary of Theon's original identity conflict.  He is not a Stark.

First trip to the heartswood:

Quote

Why did I come here?  These are not my gods.

Encounter with HM:

Quote

"Theon kinslayer."  "I was not . . . I never . . . I was ironborn"  "False is all you were."

Second visit to heartswood (immediately following encounter):

Quote

I am Theon of House Greyjoy, ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children

These encounters all play to his original conflict, were the Starks his family or were the Greyjoys.  Being named kinslayer by the HM played into Theon's acceptance of betraying his (Stark) family.  He is a Stark, and he needed to hear it from someone else.  Theon's redemption arc is not possible without first admitting to this.

So that is ultimately the question: False is all you were.  To this, what was HM referring to?  Did he mean Theon, friend and brother of the Starks was false?  Or was Theon, son of Balon, Ironborn reaver, Prince of Winterfell by right of conquest the false persona?

The television show had a great adaption dialogue by Luwin: "You're not the man you're pretending to be."

HM was referring to Theon the Ironborn as false, Theon is a Stark (hence kinslayer).

[bloodymime]

Mulled Wino, on 09 June 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

Thats true.  And exactly what i posted about 10 posts ago at the top of this page.

The Karstarks and Umbers would recognize theon, which is contrary to what someone posted as only dreadfort or ironborn or others in the castle would recognize him.

Then someone posted that Thein would
recognize all the Northern lords because of his time with the Starks, which is also false because he didnt recognize Arnolf and Whoresbane at the Dreadfort.

So you did and somehow I missed the very first post of the page or just spaced out.

[VaramyrSixchins]

Thank you, IKE! I've been arguing for several posts that that Stark/Greyjoy conflict in Theon is the catalyst for the HM hallucination's use of "kinslayer".  

It also bears repeating that JUST before meeting the HM hallucination, Theon made a horribly inaccurate comparison of the murders of the 3 ironmen in ACoK to the murders in the Ghost of Winterfell chapters. Yet after meeting the HM, he acknowledges his responsibility for the ironmen murders.

This is an example of exactly what you're talking about, his acceptance of his betrayal of the Starks. He goes from the total bullshit comparison: Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Rednose, and Gelmar the Grim.

To the truth IMMEDIATELY after meeting the HM: The old ghosts from the crypts and the younger ones he made himself, Mikken and Farlen, Rednose, Aggar, Gelmarr the Grim​...  

As you note, Theon has TWO identity conflicts: Stark/Greyjoy, Theon/Reek, and not only that, he has to publicly maintain the falsehoods of Theon once he regains the Theon identity. Throw in torture and you've got incredible psychological turmoil and trauma. There's tons of textual clues that point to Theon=HM, it can't be dismissed as less likely some character from hundreds of miles away magically appearing in a hooded cloak in the middle of winter.

[Mulled Wino]

VaramyrSixchins, on 09 June 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Thank you, IKE! I've been arguing for several posts that that Stark/Greyjoy conflict in Theon is the catalyst for the HM hallucination's use of "kinslayer".  

It also bears repeating that JUST before meeting the HM hallucination, Theon made a horribly inaccurate comparison of the murders of the 3 ironmen in ACoK to the murders in the Ghost of Winterfell chapters. Yet after meeting the HM, he acknowledges his responsibility for the ironmen murders.

This is an example of exactly what you're talking about, his acceptance of his betrayal of the Starks. He goes from the total bullshit comparison: Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Rednose, and Gelmar the Grim.

To the truth IMMEDIATELY after meeting the HM: The old ghosts from the crypts and the younger ones he made himself, Mikken and Farlen, Rednose, Aggar, Gelmarr the Grim​...  

As you note, Theon has TWO identity conflicts: Stark/Greyjoy, Theon/Reek, and not only that, he has to publicly maintain the falsehoods of Theon once he regains the Theon identity. Throw in torture and you've got incredible psychological turmoil and trauma. There's tons of textual clues that point to Theon=HM, it can't be dismissed as less likely some character from hundreds of miles away magically appearing in a hooded cloak in the middle of winter.

I see you created another account under the name IKE.  Lulz

[IKE]

Mulled Wino, on 09 June 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

I see you created another account under the name IKE.  Lulz

Please, refrain from such a baseless accusation.  That's an insult directed at me, and I've only presented text and the direction of narrative to keep a healthy debate on the subject.  I've not mingled a word with you, muddled, or judged anyone's opinion.
EDIT:  To keep the tail of this thread on subject:

I just want to clarify, what I see as the significance of HM.  Mikken, Rodrik, the kennel master, Belfred Talhart, Bolton, Umber, every northman that shuns Theon does so calling him oathbreaker and turncloak.  

They shun him for betraying his oath to the King of the North.

HM accuses Theon of betraying his family.

Subtle distinction to be sure, but distinction none the less.  Theon cannot identify a home or family of his own, yet kinslayer implies the Starks are his family.  As for some easter egg unknown identity for Martin to throw in so we can speculate at some later conspiracy to retake Winterfell, have at it.  It's Hot Pie for all I care.  

The significance of HM is he happens to say the words Theon needed to hear.  Perhaps Martin is hinting at more, or more likely, the hooded man is all he appears to be: A random northman levy obliged to Bolton and false Arya, recognizing Theon from the wedding, spewing an insult just as every other soldier that comes across Theon does.

Edited by IKE, 09 June 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[Mulled Wino]

IKE, on 09 June 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Please, refrain from such a baseless accusation.  That's an insult directed at me, and I've only presented text and the direction of narrative to keep a healthy debate on the subject.  I've not mingled a word with you, muddled, or judged anyone's opinion.
EDIT:  To keep the tail of this thread on subject:

I just want to clarify, what I see as the significance of HM.  Mikken, Rodrik, the kennel master, Belfred Talhart, Bolton, Umber, every northman that shuns Theon does so calling him oathbreaker and turncloak.  

They shun him for betraying his oath to the King of the North.

HM accuses Theon of betraying his family.

Subtle distinction to be sure, but distinction none the less.  Theon cannot identify a home or family of his own, yet kinslayer implies the Starks are his family.  As for some easter egg unknown identity for Martin to throw in so we can speculate at some later conspiracy to retake Winterfell, have at it.  It's Hot Pie for all I care.  

The significance of HM is he happens to say the words Theon needed to hear.  Perhaps Martin is hinting at more, or more likely, the hooded man is all he appears to be: A random northman levy obliged to Bolton and false Arya, recognizing Theon from the wedding, spewing an insult just as every other soldier that comes across Theon does.

Actually I was joking with Varamyr because we've been going back and forth for pages and pages and now you showed up with a very similar perspective.  No dig at you.

You're a pretty serious fellow I take it IKE.

Edited by Mulled Wino, 09 June 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[IKE]

Only when my integrity is called into question.  C'est la vie~

[jon rr stark]

Ser Elvin of Clymer, on 08 June 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

I don't agree, to me it read as HM recognized him after running into him (but I do agree that he knows Theon by sight) his hand reaches to his dagger, then he recognizes him and asks "why he breathes", and its not clear if Theons knows HM or not.
He treats him w/ familiarity by showing his hand but is otherwise vague (which is not the case w/ all the other people Theon sees in his chapters) for me that neither establishes or eliminates Theons recognition, but I don't think he is showing the nubs to just anybody he runs into.
I think Theon would recognize Glover from Robb's army for sure. But, I think enough has been left out of that conversation to make it unclear if Theon recognized HM (that is certainly where the ghost theories make sense, someone he doesn't believe is alive & would be unthreatening)

Ahh its a while since I read it but sounds like he would have killed anyone he bumped into but upon recognising theon decides not too, presumebly because he doesnt see him as a threat. which i suppose should be a clue to who he is. So does that mean its someone who knows the situation with theon and that he wouldnt blab to ramsey?

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

jon rr stark, on 09 June 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Ahh its a while since I read it but sounds like he would have killed anyone he bumped into but upon recognising theon decides not too, presumebly because he doesnt see him as a threat. which i suppose should be a clue to who he is. So does that mean its someone who knows the situation with theon and that he wouldnt blab to ramsey?

Yeah, at 1st I was thinking that way, but because the other murders are generally known it could be strictly defensive.
Though after seeing Theon's fingers HM does say, I'll leave you for Ramsay, which SHOULD mean he would have killed him - but decided against it, pity? Ramsay is a more worthy fate (instead of a fast death) etc.
If HM is the other murderer (not Walder, Manderley or Spearwife) then definitely he decided not to do it, but as Ike points out a random Bolton/Northman who is wandering around Winterfell during murder season would be just jumpy and could react similarly.

[Volderon]

I like the idea of Davos being the HM if only for the purpose of storytelling, it would certainly move the story along and cut out yet another journey to some far away land.

Remember when Cat made it to KL in one chapter? The good old days...

[Aluminum Link]

VaramyrSixchins, on 09 June 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

There's tons of textual clues that point to Theon=HM, it can't be dismissed as less likely some character from hundreds of miles away magically appearing in a hooded cloak in the middle of winter.

The theory is not really being dismissed. What I and others have been arguing is that you've found a lot of evidence that clarifies Theon's internal conflict, but none of it is directly linked to the HM.

Now, I know, the link you keep pointing to is via the use of the word 'kinslayer'. But, as has been pointed out several times over, the HM is not the only person who uses that term, which IMO does invalidate the one and only link between all his internal turmoil and the HM encounter.

ETA: It doesn't mean there isn't a link, only that there's no evidence for one in ADwD (at least not that's been found yet)

Edited by Aluminum Link, 09 June 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

I'm liking the journeys to far off lands, but I can understand the other side as well.

[Dimadick]

Ser Elvin of Clymer, on 08 June 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Also, calling him kinslayer can mean different things, to a northman its killing Bran & Rickon,  but it could refer to turning the ironborn for Ramsay @ Moat Cailin and I feel like it can be used an expletive in Westeros - like us calling someone a bastard does not mean they actually are.

"Kin" translates to race, family, breed, kind. A kinslayer is someone who specifically kills his/her own kin. None of the Ironborn at Moat Cailin claimed any relation to the Greyjoys. They could be called "kith", that is "friends and acquaintances" with a bit of a stretch. But kin?

According to Theon all men at Moat Cailin "were strangers to him". And some were at best disreputable. Theon notes several men wearing the "silver codfish" of House Codd, a clan not well regagarded in the Iron Islands. All male members were reputed to be thieves and cowards, all female members reputed to be "wantons" (sluts) who practice incest with their own fathers and brothers. Theon assumes that Victarion left this group there to serve as cannon fodder.

With that reputation I doubt House Codd finds marriage alliances easy. No men want to marry fishes.

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

Dimadick, on 10 June 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

"Kin" translates to race, family, breed, kind. A kinslayer is someone who specifically kills his/her own kin. None of the Ironborn at Moat Cailin claimed any relation to the Greyjoys. They could be called "kith", that is "friends and acquaintances" with a bit of a stretch. But kin?

According to Theon all men at Moat Cailin "were strangers to him". And some were at best disreputable. Theon notes several men wearing the "silver codfish" of House Codd, a clan not well regagarded in the Iron Islands. All male members were reputed to be thieves and cowards, all female members reputed to be "wantons" (sluts) who practice incest with their own fathers and brothers. Theon assumes that Victarion left this group there to serve as cannon fodder.

With that reputation I doubt House Codd finds marriage alliances easy. No men want to marry fishes.

Except that this still doesn't explain why people are calling Theon kinslayer if he didn't slay his kin. If the words actual meaning is so important, and at least 3 people have called him it (Spearwife, HM, Umber in the sample chapter?), then how is it verboten to call someone "kinslayer" when they aren't actually a kinslayer - the argument is lost in the example.

As for the ironborn, I am not saying they are actual kin (though I remember a lot of thats my 7th cousin stuff from Asha's POVs) and Theon wouldn't recognize many Ironborn because he didn't grow up there (he is also pretty crazy from torture at that point). Thats not my point, he betrays his own people, publicly. I don't feel kinslayer is important because its a word that expresses a terrible crime or is only used when people mean someone killed their kin. Its an important word to Theon, that he is insulted by (most of the other things he reacts submissive about, insults to his smell, turncloak etc.) he changes from Reek back to Theon because he knows it isn't true and the word is like a catalyst that returns him to caring about life.

Additionally, 1 of the reasons I enjoy these books is the strength, diversity of the snubs and insults cast around constantly, GRRM has a keen sense of these and they are rarely boring. In each case I think "Kinslayer" is being used as an insult towards Theon. I think if you simply think back to some personal road rage, you and I would find some curses we yelled or thought, that are insulting and not accurate. I think generally the characters are not thinking - whats the worst thing I can call him, but its not the truth? They are just cursing him and in Westeros one horrible thing to call him is "kinslayer"

To be clear I think Kinslayer is important to Theon (The POV, so it is emphasized to him) as a character, not the identity of the HM.

[VaramyrSixchins]

Mulled Wino, on 09 June 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

I see you created another account under the name IKE.  Lulz

LOL, I got so wrapped up in split-personality arguments, I developed my own split-personality.  

Edited by VaramyrSixchins, 10 June 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[VaramyrSixchins]

Aluminum Link, on 09 June 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

The theory is not really being dismissed. What I and others have been arguing is that you've found a lot of evidence that clarifies Theon's internal conflict, but none of it is directly linked to the HM.

Now, I know, the link you keep pointing to is via the use of the word 'kinslayer'. But, as has been pointed out several times over, the HM is not the only person who uses that term, which IMO does invalidate the one and only link between all his internal turmoil and the HM encounter.

ETA: It doesn't mean there isn't a link, only that there's no evidence for one in ADwD (at least not that's been found yet)

Well, I don't believe that the other characters usage of the term invalidates the link, nor is it the only link.

I think it's significant that HM used the term FIRST because of the  events and thought processes of Theon immediately before and after the encounter. Neither of the two other usages preceded such a drastic turnaround. Combined with the time-displacement, the glove removal inconsistancy, and the other things I've already posted about, one can make a strong argument that Theon hallucinated the HM as part of his psychological transformation. Far from simply clarifying the internal conflict, I think these things clue us in as to how the internal conflict led to the hallucination.

The other links are the hallucination's appearance at a moment when Theon feels "almost at peace", and the glove removal inconsistancy. Arguably even a couple more just within the encounter.

[VaramyrSixchins]

Ser Elvin of Clymer, on 10 June 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

                           <snip>
the word is like a catalyst that returns him to caring about life.

To be clear I think Kinslayer is important to Theon (The POV, so it is emphasized to him) as a character, not the identity of the HM.

I respect the caveat in your last sentence, but it's worth noting that if the HM is a psychological construct of Theon himself, it just might use words that are catalysts in an effort to return Theon to a more rational state. Judging by the turnaround in Theon's acknowledgement of his culpability in the 3 ironmen murders, it may have worked.

[Buried Treasure]

VaramyrSixchins, on 09 June 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

As you note, Theon has TWO identity conflicts: Stark/Greyjoy, Theon/Reek, and not only that, he has to publicly maintain the falsehoods of Theon once he regains the Theon identity. Throw in torture and you've got incredible psychological turmoil and trauma. There's tons of textual clues that point to Theon=HM, it can't be dismissed as less likely some character from hundreds of miles away magically appearing in a hooded cloak in the middle of winter.

It's not an either / or proposition. I for one don't like the idea that Theon=HM (he's definely going through a mental breakdown, I just don't think it takes that form) or that anybody snuck into Winterfell in those awful winter conditions. There are hundreds of people in Winterfell, of which only a relative handful are known to everyone; the lords, captains and notable figures like singer 'Abel' and traitor Theon. The rest are mostly going to be known only amongst their own contingent, Theon would have recognised the hooded man if he was a Dreadfort man but if he what's to stop him being a common soldier sworn to any of the other lords?

[Mulled Wino]

VaramyrSixchins, on 10 June 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

LOL, I got so wrapped up in split-personality arguments, I developed my own split-personality.  

My first actual laugh on this site (queen cersei has had me close).

Your new personality is a bit testy.