132 replies to this topic

[The Fallen]

I'm currently re-reading 'A Clash of Kings', and I happened to come across an interesting tidbit of info while Varys is leading Tyrion through the secret tunnel at Chataya's brothel. Tyrion asks Varys about the secret entrance.

"How is it a brothel happens to have a secret entrance?"
"The tunnel was dug for another King's Hand, whose honor would not allow him to enter such a house openly. Chataya has closely guarded the knowledge of its existence." (emphasis by me)

When I read it this time around, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. The Hand in question can be no other than Tywin Lannister himself. Then everything else just made sense; his hatred of Tyrion, and Shae being in his bed the night Tyrion killed him.

Now I know there have been other Hands, so let's look at each of them. (I narrowed it down to Hands who were around while Chataya has had this establishment. So I say it's about a 20-25 year period.)

• Ned Stark - doesn't frequent brothels.
  
• Jon Arryn - fairly certain that he didn't frequent brothels.
  
• Jon Connington - was out waging war for the Mad King.

There were also other minor, insignificant Hands in between the two Jons, Connington and Arryn. This leaves only Tywin Lannister.

It explains Tywin's behavior towards Tyrion. Not only did Tyrion inherit Tywin's intellect, but he also inherited his propensity to sleep with whores. It explains Shae being in his bed and for who-knows how long. It explains the resentment he harbors towards whores. Tywin hated this particular personality trait of his, but he was too weak to fight it in himself. So instead he took it out on the whores and especially his son. He sees Tyrion as his own walking, breathing weakness. Tyrion really was a curse inflicted on Tywin by the Gods. Hence, the awful smell during his funeral. Tywin was a major-league hypocrite. As my mom likes to say, "he was preaching morals with no clothes on."

Seriously, we can go in so many directions with this. Do you agree/disagree? Let me hear your thoughts.

[Pellaeon]

That's true, Tywin and Tyrion are pretty similar expection Tyrion has something like mercy. Tywin is the whoremonger

[SerMixalot]

As Gemma Lannister said, Tyrion is truly Tywins son, far moreso than Jamie

[Sarnius]

I believe Jaima and Cersei aren't even Twyin's children. They're the offspring of Aerys and Joanna.

I think Tyrion is the only true child of Twyin's(Except for the many bastards he probably had with the whores).

Edited by Sarnius, 25 May 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[The Fallen]

SerMixalot, on 25 May 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

As Gemma Lannister said, Tyrion is truly Tywins son, far moreso than Jamie

    Maybe she knew something?

[Roose Bolton's Pet Leech]

(1) This is Varys. Take his words with a grain of salt.

(2) There's no need for it to be in the last 20-25 years: Chataya might have only become aware of it after she bought the place.

[Gannicus]

I love it! It will probably never be revealed but it makes sense.  With no wife, a high sense of honor and dignity, and Shea in his bed this really sounds plausible.

[The Fallen]

Roose Bolton, on 25 May 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

(1) This is Varys. Take his words with a grain of salt.

As far as I can tell, Varys usually speaks in truths. He may not tell a particular person all of what he knows. But I can't recall him blatantly lying to anyone or giving them false information.

Roose Bolton, on 25 May 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

(2) There's no need for it to be in the last 20-25 years: Chataya might have only become aware of it after she bought the place.

Well this is Chataya's establishment. After Tyrion complements her on the brothel she tells him , "she's labored long to make it so." Also, what good is a secret entrance whose knowledge of its existence has been passed down from owner to owner?

Those are weak points against my argument.

[ultness]

Not only that.. but Tyrion finds Shae in Tywin's bed.

[Brandyjane]

I'm rereading, too. I just came across that particular exchange last night, and the same thought occurred to me! We may never know for sure (I hope we don't), but unless something contradicts it later, I'm going to keep on believing it was Tywin's secret passage.

[Bourne]

The Fallen, on 25 May 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

  Those are weak points against my argument.

Not really.

Varys' greatest skill is deceiving. I personally don't think he was lying about the king's hand, but saying Varys doesn't lie isn't just a weak argument, it's a stupid one.

And as far as the secret tunnel, the point of it isn't to have an entrance no one knows about, it's for people to get in without being seen. Even if all the past owners know about, they don't know who's going in.

That said, I bet it was Tywin (after Joanna died) and it does explain a lot of his treatment of Tyrion.

[Winter's Knight]

The title irritates me-Tywin was at most a....customer, he didn't "monger" anybody but his children.
And I think the passage was probably built along with the rest of the Red Keep during the reign of Maegor the Cruel.

[Dornish Bannerman]

Littlefinger is the one who lies and decieves. Varys tells the truth, but not always all of the truth...

[The Fallen]

Winter, on 25 May 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

The title irritates me-Tywin was at most a....customer, he didn't "monger" anybody but his children. And I think the passage was probably built along with the rest of the Red Keep during the reign of Maegor the Cruel.

    Well, if you have a secret passage built into a brothel, chances are you're probably more than just a 'customer'.

[Boz Skagos]

So, if Tywin didn't frequent whores, what was Shae doing in his bed? Just curious.

[Blisscraft]

Boz Skagos, on 25 May 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

So, if Tywin didn't frequent whores, what was Shae doing in his bed? Just curious.

I agree!  Also, I love your name.  It made me laugh.  Boz Skagos!  Har!

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Boz Skagos, on 25 May 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

So, if Tywin didn't frequent whores, what was Shae doing in his bed? Just curious.

And she was naked when people found tywin's body next day. Cercei makes a note of it in FFC

[Lord Barristan]

In A Dance with Dragons, during Tyrion's discussion with Varys he says: "You knew what she was." (Referring to Shae) and Tyrion says "Yes but I didn't know what he was." (referring to Tywin.) Varys says, "And now you do." This makes it clear IMO that Varys had known of tywin's frequenting of whores for a while

What he said in Clash was just a hint. If Varys hadn't known before, he would have said something like "and now we know"

Edited by Lord Barristan, 25 May 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[Thallus]

The Fallen, on 25 May 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Those are weak points against my argument.

Your argument in itself is weak. I think it is fair to rule out Ned because we the reader have vision of Ned during his stay as the Hand.

However, the flippancy with which you rule out Jon Arryn is stupid. You provide 0 evidence, clearly you base this off of JA's "percieved character", but if you use such a thing to rule out JA, why do you not extend the same charity to Tywin?

Quote

The title irritates me-Tywin was at most a....customer, he didn't "monger" anybody but his children.

Lol, I thought so as well, but kids will learn words and use them without knowing their meaning as they will. Just like they will make decisions and then find the proof around every corner.

Edited by Thallus, 25 May 2012 - 02:47 PM.

[LordBloodraven]

I think it's Tywin too. I don't know for how long Chataya had been in King's Landing but the Hand who was too proud to enter by the main gate of a brothel fits perfectly Tywin's sense of pride and honor. And he had lost his wife for a long time, and before that, she used to live in Casterly Rock.