395 replies to this topic

[Lummel]

The aim of this project is to re-read the Dany and Jon chapters in ADWD with a view to comparing them as leaders, examining the kinds of challenges they face, how they attempt to deal with them and looking at the common patterns, themes and events that both have to deal with. We are not expecting to see who is 'best' or does better as a leader but to try and see the similarities and differences in their situations and leadership styles.

It's probably impossible to avoid discussing gender or race in looking at these chapters – but lets keep it on topic and relevant to the discussion, if you want a broader discussion of those issues - there is a place for that too. We've been inspired by the really interesting discussions on other re-read threads (this onein particular) and hope to give everybody a bit of space and inspiration to spark off some insights here.

The re-readings will be done by Butterbumps!, Dr Pepper and myself and we are aiming to post two chapters a week with each of us doing eight chapters. Since Jon has 13 chapters in ADWD and Dany 11 10 (see below) we are going to start with Jon I and alternate the Dany and Jon chapters rather than follow the book order.

ETA and if anybody can post how to add tags I'll be happy to stick some on!

Edited by Lummel, 26 May 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[Lummel]

Jon I
Overview
We begin with a wolf dream. Ghost senses his siblings. Mormont's crow wakes him and Dolorous Edd brings news. Wildlings drifting in. Jon reviews Stannis' request for land. Stannis has been down the Kingsroad, inspecting castles, walking the Wall and questioning prisoners. Jon refuses having an escort (compare with Melisandre). He avoids fighting the Queen's man Ser Godry Farring. Builders are working on rebuilding the stair. Offers gloves to Stannis' men, chides Sam.

Jon and Stannis discuss Lyanna Mormont's defiance, Arnolf Karstark's obedience, the duties of Kings and subjects – law and mutual duties. Jon offers to allow Stannis' men to serve freely but under the Watch's officers – an offer that will be repeated in different circumstances later on. Stannis tells Jon that Slynt and Thorne have been complaining about him. As Jon leaves Melisandre accompanies him and warns him of his enemies as well as offering her friendship.


Observations

• Prunes with breakfast, (other prune eaters include Pycelle and Roose Bolton) is constipation the true enemy of the realms of men?
  
• “Any trouble from the stockades last night?” “Not since you put guards on the guards, m'lord.” - who will watch the watchers!
  
• “The stones of those forts are mortared with the blood and bones of my brothers, long dead. I cannot give them to you.” - sense of tradition, but this can be a burden too, something that will come up again.
  
• Melisandre plays a similar role to Quaithe – something to watch for.

Analysis
This is a deceptive little chapter. It is quite dense in content and we see the seeds of future chapters are being planted. A lot of basic concepts are laid out here - Stannis has a duty to his men to provide for them and be open handed and they have a return duty to serve him does this also apply to Jon?

“I am lord commander because my brothers chose me”. Jon is leader because his Brothers chose him. Stannis claims the throne by right of descent, but actually many of his followers have chosen to follow him rather than just doing their duty, and of course there is a lot of 'credit' involved as Stannis hasn't the means to reward them. What happens if the followers withdraw their choice, was their choice, if only from their POV, in some way conditional?

“Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends” hmm. Bit of a trend here...Of course The Ned was also betrayed by people he thought he could trust, as was Aerys II...The enemy within is a theme to watch for in these chapters.

“My command...as much a ruin as it is a stronghold” - could the same be said of his men? In which case Jon has a duty to rebuild the Watch as well as the Wall to make sure it is fit for purpose.

“It is too late for such misgivings. You made your choice”. Bit of an ASOIAF theme, the consequences of choices and how everybody has to live with them. The Ned is another man who was determined to live with the consequences of a choice he made.

At this stage Stannis seems to be doing the work of the leader on the Wall, inspecting, planning for the future, trying to building alliances. Stannis says “Just once you might give me an answer that would please me, Lord Snow”, at this stage Jon plays the part of unhelpful advisor who doesn't support the leader or help them implement their ideas – we'll see this reversed later on with Jon as leader and his officers as the unhelpful advisers. It's also something to watch out for in the Dany chapters.

...and next time Dr. Pepper will be here to bring you Dany I.

Edited by Lummel, 26 May 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[LordBloodraven]

Are you going to analyze only the ADWD chapters?

Jon's ambition to rebuild the Wall is evident in this chapter. By this time, he knows the real enemy and realizes that the Wall as it was wouldn't stand a chance against the Others. Stannis is more like the cumbersome guest to whom the LC must feel grateful to for saving the day during the battle. But at this point his situation is not much better than the Wall. He came to the Wall after wall because he had not much better to do and to the North to reap on the memory of Robb and Ned.

Besides, I don't think that Stannis's men would/could withdraw their choices.  They are traitors to the Iron Throne and can't expect but a decapitation from the Lannisters. But at the same time, they are very devoted to Stannis and have a trust in his abilities and predestination as Azor Ahai (except some like Massey perhaps). Something that lacked in Jon's tenure as LC from his officers like Bowen Marsh and Septon Cellador. He had all the best plans and a good vision about the Watch's challenges but couldn't have the support of his main officers at Castle Black in this endeavour and didn't have the sense to replace them with others. Even in this chapter, you could see that his leadership is still contested by Slynt and Thorne while King's Men such as Godry Farring doubt his abilities as a swordman, as a soldier. Perhaps Jon's desire not to show the trappings of his power are the reason for such distrust? Farring seems to take him as a joke and even during his other meetings with Stannis, we ofter saw Stannis's captains sniggering at him...
In this gloomy world, his discussion with Stannis were the only time that we saw Jon as a LC and he had to cede the Nightfort so as to preserve the independence of the Wall.

[Lummel]

LordBloodraven, on 26 May 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Are you going to analyze only the ADWD chapters?...

That's the plan at the moment.  There are 24 Dany and Jon chapters so at two a week this is looking to be a 3 month project as it is.

I'm open to the idea of extending it back in time, but I think Dr Pepper, Butterbumps! and myself will want to get a sense of how this goes first and how well alternating between the two and comparing them goes.  Back in time of course Jon gets way more chapters than Dany so that would be an issue...But it's an intereesting thought.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Lummel, on 26 May 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

That's the plan at the moment.  There are 24 Dany and Jon chapters so at two a week this is looking to be a 3 month project as it is.

Not to quibble, but I think there are only 23 of their chapters actually.  13 Jon and 10 Dany.  At least according to the tower of the hand website that is.

Anyway, I like your first analysis.  I'm looking forward to the rest of these entries, they should be interesting.  Thanks!  

Edited by Ser Wun Wun, 26 May 2012 - 05:38 AM.

[Lummel]

Ser Wun Wun, on 26 May 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

Not to quibble, but I think there are only 23 of their chapters actually.  13 Jon and 10 Dany.

Hmm I did a summary here and now I notice that I skipped a number in the chapter list.  Made I should go and have that dyslexia test afterall.  We'll have to work round that I suppose.

[Fragile Bird]

Brashie, you've changed . . . . . lol.

Looking forward to doing this with you, especially since I dislike Dany and have just skimmed her chapters.  I hereby stick my hand into my bag of Faerie dust and sprinkle the three of you with the essence of brash candy and Rapsie as a starting blessing - may their skills of analysis be passed on to you!

[Buried Treasure]

The theme of the thread is a comparison of Jon and Dany's leadership (which is obviously also a deliberate theme in the book as well) but this chapter is much more about Stannis and Jon. That continues throughout the book as well, and is very much in evidence when Mel compares the two. I definately think you should include the chapters when other characters give a POV of them - at least Mel and Quentyn although I guess not Barristan as Dany was already MIA by then. We have not seen much of either Jon or Dany from outside perspectives.

I've tried to keep my response to the rest of the intial post fairly short and limited it to a few points:
Jon I
Analysis
This is a deceptive little chapter. It is quite dense in content and we see the seeds of future chapters are being planted. A lot of basic concepts are laid out here - Stannis has a duty to his men to provide for them and be open handed and they have a return duty to serve him does this also apply to Jon?
Providing for the men who serve you in return for the service is the duty of all leaders I would say. However Stannis is a king and providing peace, justice and wealth for the people (from highest noble to lowly peasants) is a purpose in and of itself for a king. Jon is commander of an order which is sworn to a specific purpose and providing for his men should not be a purpose in itself. His moral obligation to provide is more about rewarding them for fulfilling their duty (to the higher purpose of the Watch) without asking them to starve or freeze whilst they are at it.

“Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends” hmm. Bit of a trend here...
Of course The Ned was also betrayed by people he thought he could trust, as was Aerys II...
Is this a case of you can only be betrayed by people you thought you could trust? As in, by definiton? Plenty of people in the books have been defeated by non-betrayal by actual declared enemies too!!

At this stage Stannis seems to be doing the work of the leader on the Wall, inspecting, planning for the future, trying to building alliances. Stannis says “Just once you might give me an answer that would please me, Lord Snow”, at this stage Jon plays the part of unhelpful advisor who doesn't support the leader or help them implement their ideas – we'll see this reversed later on with Jon as leader and his officers as the unhelpful advisers. It's also something to watch out for in the Dany chapters.
I’d not noticed this parallel before and it is an intereting one. I guess at this stage Jon is mostly caught up with learning the job and administrating things like rebuilding the stair. Mind you, that makes the parallel somewhat stonger in that later Bowen is an administrator (he still gets a lot of work done, if unwillingly) for Jon when he is the one with the grander plans. The difference between Jon and Bowen is mostly one of can’t / won’t. Bowen mostly displeases Jon because he won’t think big, Jon approves of Stannis planning big and most of the displeasing answers he gives Stannis are just truth (such as saying Val won’t take Lord Too-fat-to-sit-a-horse).

[brashcandy]

Fragile Bird, on 26 May 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

Brashie, you've changed . . . . . lol.

Looking forward to doing this with you, especially since I dislike Dany and have just skimmed her chapters.  I hereby stick my hand into my bag of Faerie dust and sprinkle the three of you with the essence of brash candy and Rapsie as a starting blessing - may their skills of analysis be passed on to you!

Haha! Dany and Jon are my favs after Sansa, so really happy about this re-read Lummel and crew!

[Lummel]

Buried Treasure, on 26 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

The theme of the thread is a comparison of Jon and Dany's leadership (which is obviously also a deliberate theme in the book as well) but this chapter is much more about Stannis and Jon. That continues throughout the book as well, and is very much in evidence when Mel compares the two. I definately think you should include the chapters when other characters give a POV of them - at least Mel and Quentyn although I guess not Barristan as Dany was already MIA by then. We have not seen much of either Jon or Dany from outside perspectives.

Yes that's true, I certainly think it's worth while looking sideways at that comparision and also looking at other role models (Mormont, Aemon, Qhorin for Jon; Drogo??? for Dany) that the two might draw on or compare themselves with.

Buried Treasure, on 26 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

...“Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends” hmm. Bit of a trend here...
Of course The Ned was also betrayed by people he thought he could trust, as was Aerys II...
Is this a case of you can only be betrayed by people you thought you could trust? As in, by definiton? Plenty of people in the books have been defeated by non-betrayal by actual declared enemies too!!...

You're right, that was obviously a particularly stupid thing to say, even for me.  So let me try and desperately try and make something that seems a little cleverer out of it...
Firstly I want to put a flag up for the theme of the enemy within and for both Dany and Jon betrayal I think is driven largely as a reaction to them, their policies and their leadership.  OK this is also true to some extent of Robb and The Ned too, but in those cases there are also some drivers that are external - like Tywin's involvement, Littlefinger's desire to bring down the Starks.  Hopefully we'll see how far a comparision between Dany and Jon's internal enemies holds up over the coming weeks.

brashcandy, on 26 May 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

Haha! Dany and Jon are my favs after Sansa, so really happy about this re-read Lummel and crew!

Of course now that you've said that we'll be expecting you to join in the discussion

[Blisscraft]

Does the enemy within include theme include the one in themselves?  It seems that many times Jon and Dany are his/her own worst enemy.

[Blisscraft]

OOPS!  Tried to edit the above and couldn't.  Please disregard the double include.

[Winterfellian]

Great idea for a thread! Am looking forward for the rest of our posts.

Lummel, on 26 May 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

Jon I
Overview

• Melisandre plays a similar role to Quaithe – something to watch for.

I always thought interesting the parallels between Jon's and Danny's reactions to Quaithe and Melissandre. They are very opposites; while Jon inmediately dismissed Mel's warning Dany's completely thrusted Quaithe's to the point of obssesing about them. Neither is a middle ground.

Lummel, on 26 May 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

“My command...as much a ruin as it is a stronghold” - could the same be said of his men? In which case Jon has a duty to rebuild the Watch as well as the Wall to make sure it is fit for purpose.

This! This is a very interesting comparison. I always felt that the ruined descriptions of the wall and it's castles is also symbolic for the black brother. After all a wall is only a strong as the men who hold it.

Edited by Winterfellian, 26 May 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Buried Treasure]

Lummel, on 26 May 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

Yes that's true, I certainly think it's worth while looking sideways at that comparision and also looking at other role models (Mormont, Aemon, Qhorin for Jon; Drogo??? for Dany) that the two might draw on or compare themselves with.

God, that's tragic. Jon gets a list, which even missing mentors like Ned and Donal Noye looks impressive, Dany gets one person with a question mark. I prefer Jon, and going into this I think he is the better leader, but I do feel sorry for Dany.

[brashcandy]

This first chapter really establishes the burden of duty and the serious approach that Jon is taking to his leadership. Stannis is as usual extremely rigid, but Jon is able to match him just as well in not bending to the king's demands, and in the end it's Stannis who relents (somewhat ). He's honest, yet unfailingly diplomatic during the conversation, with Stannis noting how he measures his words:

Quote

Stannis snorted. "You spend your words as if everyone were a golden dragon."

Jon is quite mindful of how others see him as well, when he is walking back with Melisandre after meeting Stannis he removes his hand from hers:

Quote

Jon could feel her heat, even through his wool and boiled leather. The sight of them arm in arm was drawing curious looks. They will be whisperings in the barracks tonight. "If you can truly see the morrow in your flames, tell me when and where the next wildling attack will come." He slipped his arm free.

Jon is being quite prudent with both Stannis and Melisandre: aware that the Northmen will not give take kindly to Stannis' southron knights holding the castles, and of the misleading impression that might be circulated if he is seen to be too close with the Red woman. It's a fine, hard line he has to walk and he's not without his moments of doubts and insecurities, but overall the challenges of leadership seem to have toughened him up:

Quote

"BOY! YOU THERE! BOY!"
Boy was not the worst of the things that Jon Snow had been called since being chosen Lord Commander. He ignored it.

I was wondering if the incident with Ser Godry seems like a bit of foreshadowing for the attack on Jon at the end of book:

Quote

"You will excuse me." Jon showed them his back.

He may have begun here to not take the threats surrounding him seriously enough, as he earlier complains about the need for having guards around when he went about the castle:

Quote

Jon hated having guards trailing after him everywhere he went. It made him feel like a mother duck leading a procession of ducklings.

So there's a personal and a professional reluctance to being seen as needing protection(or advice from outsiders).There's little sense of personal vanity, but rather a determination to ensure the interests of the Watch are met. I think this chapter really shows how Jon is in the process of killing the boy in himself.

Edited by brashcandy, 26 May 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[Lummel]

Blisscraft, on 26 May 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Does the enemy within include theme include the one in themselves?  It seems that many times Jon and Dany are his/her own worst enemy.

OK, so they are self-destructive in some ways?  This could be something to explore...

Winterfellian, on 26 May 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

...I always thought interesting the parallels between Jon's and Danny's reactions to Quaithe and Melissandre. They are very opposites; while Jon inmediately dismissed Mel's warning Dany's completely thrusted Quaithe's to the point of obssesing about them. Neither is a middle ground...

That's an interesting observation and worth remembering as we read through the chapters.

Buried Treasure, on 26 May 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

God, that's tragic. Jon gets a list, which even missing mentors like Ned and Donal Noye looks impressive, Dany gets one person with a question mark. I prefer Jon, and going into this I think he is the better leader, but I do feel sorry for Dany.

  I know!  One is groomed for command while the other is doomed to rule.   It is one of the reasons why I was keen to be involved when Butterbumps! suggested doing a comparision reread.

Brashcandy said:

Quote

So there's a personal and a professional reluctance to being seen as needing protection. There's little sense of personal vanity, but rather a determination to ensure the interests of the Watch are met. I think this chapter really shows how Jon is in the process of killing the boy in himself.

Nicely put.  Jon already wants to be seen as a man maybe?  I think that's an interesting contrast with Dany, that he's quite comfortable with an austere image while I think Dany struggles with the whole business of looking regal and looking the part of the ruler...but that's all really still to come

[brashcandy]

Yes, so much more to come.... Essentially, I think that they both struggle with the question of duty vs. desire, personal ties vs. political obligations.
A question I had regarding Jon's resistance to Stannis in this chapter: is he refusing him as Lord Commander of the Watch, or more as Jon Snow, (bastard) son of Eddard Stark, and defender of Northern values?
When Stannis tells him that Ned would have given him those castles, Jon's first thought is a lot more passionate than his studied reply:

Quote

Never. "I cannot speak to what my father would have done. I took an oath, Your Grace. The Wall is mine.

Although Jon may claim he isn't acting as Ned would have, he's still inwardly sure that his father would never have yielded those castles. I think it's a nice set up for the struggles we see him having later between breaking his oath and helping his family. His fidelity to the Watch may have always already been compromised, and true neutrality is nothing more than wishful thinking perhaps?

Edited by brashcandy, 26 May 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[Lummel]

Yes it is an interesting point.  Jon is compromised.  First as an oath breaker then for the relationship with Stannis, I'm cheating a bit but it is in Samwell AFFC that his letter to the Iron Throne is just a paper shield - he knows he looks dirty on this too.  I like how he has turned The Ned into this image of uncompromising moral rectitude, while we know that the real living Eddard Stark made his compromises, kept his secrets and had moral conflicts.

In any case Jon can't be neutral, Stannis has forced himself upon him, trying to be neutral is an artifical exercise I think.

[brashcandy]

Lummel, on 26 May 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yes it is an interesting point.  Jon is compromised.  First as an oath breaker then for the relationship with Stannis, I'm cheating a bit but it is in Samwell AFFC that his letter to the Iron Throne is just a paper shield - he knows he looks dirty on this too.  I like how he has turned The Ned into this image of uncompromising moral rectitude, while we know that the real living Eddard Stark made his compromises, kept his secrets and had moral conflicts.

In any case Jon can't be neutral, Stannis has forced himself upon him, trying to be neutral is an artifical exercise I think.

I agree, and it's even furthered underscored by the symbolism of the chapter opening with the wolf dream. Jon was already a member of a pack before the NW.

[Winter's Knight]

Lummel, on 26 May 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

Nicely put.  Jon already wants to be seen as a man maybe?  I think that's an interesting contrast with Dany, that he's quite comfortable with an austere image while I think Dany struggles with the whole business of looking regal and looking the part of the ruler...but that's all really still to come

Jumping a bit ahead here, but Jon's role was to be a commander and thus, perhaps he didn't like looking like he needed protection? The organisation he's leading is martial in nature and thus requires him to be firm, strong an severe.