Western Crow Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Hi all, this has probably been covered many time in previous posts, but I need to get it off my chest and out there. Does GRRM enjoy not letting characters achieve even a modicum of revenge on the wrongs done against them or their house. Take the Starks for instance. Clearly they have suffered the most and yet remain displaced, disengaged, or deceased. Many times I thought yes this might be the time where such and such will get them back...... Only for the dread to continue.I know that Martin has stated that no character is safe, and not to expect a happy ending for all. Fair enough but...... And it's a big but. Unless he's mental, the natural story arc is for at least some of the characters to have closure and some of the houses to return to glory. Otherwise what is the point of investing hours, days, weeks reading these books only to have all the main characters killed off?Have I got it all wrong?WC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan the Clever Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 A Feast for Crows is book 4. The series is intended to have 7 books. See my point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Crow Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 LAN, not really. You mean to tell me he'll wrap it up all nicely in book 7..... Or will it be book 8? Perhaps even Martin doesn't know yet, but I mean throw us a bone here. I'm only 100 pages into Feast at the moment.WC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yago Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Martin doesn't believe in revenge, he compensates by giving others misery as well :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear Me Roar! Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 You're not even halfway through the series, technically. What are you complainin about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Crow Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 Its not complaining ..... More frustration. Obviously the author has a plan in mind, and rather than submit over one book he's chosen 7. What I was getting at was more about how certain characters become tantalizingly close to one another only to avoid what seems a certain confrontation. Also I'm bemused by the fact that the tormentors in the story are rarely dealt with by the people they've hurt the most. For instance Sansa should have been the one to kill Joffery...... Robb no chance to make someone answer for the deaths of his father and brothers. I know I know..... Life's not fair either. WC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kobayashi Maru Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I get your point.No one is geting any closure at all.I understand that he doesn't want to make it too main stream-y with everybody geting what they want and havung happy ending but,and yes it is a big but,there must be at least some revenge/closure/satisfaction or what is the point.We are reading 7 books and in the end everybody dies in misery,far away from their friends and family in a land overrun bu zombies?I also get the argument that not everything in life has happy ending and not everybody gets what they want but you could also argue that some people actualy do get their happy ever after.It is as much posible to have your revenge on the family who distroyed yours as it is to not achieve it.If you ask me it's kind of 50/50 chance and so far in the books,and I've read all of them,it's been more like 90/10 meening 90% of people don't get what they or who they want and to me that is as unlikely as 90% of people geting all they wanted all the time.Do you get what I want to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Crow Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 Mrs C, thank you. Yes I understand your point. Of course there have been times throughout history when a certain group of people have been dealt a harsh blow, or even wiped off the face of the earth. I guess at the end of the day the story needs to have a beginning a middle and an end...... Not just misery.Basic drama is 3 acts. Even George Lucas knows that as he tried to achieve it with the first 3 star wars films (yes ep 4,5,6).Hopefully the story will quicken, and bring about some much needed resolution to characters and readers alike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan the Clever Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 LAN, not really. You mean to tell me he'll wrap it up all nicely in book 7..... Or will it be book 8? Perhaps even Martin doesn't know yet, but I mean throw us a bone here.I'm only 100 pages into Feast at the moment.WCThe point is that, with the Starks being as important to the plot as they are, it's unlikely that they'll get their "revenge" before near the end of the series, if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Otherwise what is the point of investing hours, days, weeks reading these books only to have all the main characters killed off?To read a good story? There a many authors doing exactly that and producing great books.But in any case Martin's prowesses in killing main characters are greatly overstated. So far we've seen the parents bite it, and one brother. Parents are par for the course, no Fantasy hero gets to have his mom alive by the end, and even less his father. For the rest, the "bad guys" have had way heavier losses. Starting from Tywin, Gregor, Lorch, Hoath, Renly, Balon, Vyserys, Drogo, Joffrey, a growing number of Freys, rebels on the fist, Lysa, whatever.That for once the good guys have a couple of people dying, amidst the carnage wrought on "bad" families, is refreshing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Manwoody Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 To read a good story? There a many authors doing exactly that and producing great books.But in any case Martin's prowesses in killing main characters are greatly overstated. So far we've seen the parents bite it, and one brother. Parents are par for the course, no Fantasy hero gets to have his mom alive by the end, and even less his father. For the rest, the "bad guys" have had way heavier losses. Starting from Tywin, Gregor, Lorch, Hoath, Renly, Balon, Vyserys, Drogo, Joffrey, a growing number of Freys, rebels on the fist, Lysa, whatever.That for once the good guys have a couple of people dying, amidst the carnage wrought on "bad" families, is refreshing.I agree. He hasn't actually killed off that many. I think he simply played on traditional fantasy and our expectations in the first three books. And, he made the deaths more gritty and realistic and less glorious (if that makes sense). When I started the series, I had no idea where the story would ultimately lead (still don't, but at least I know it is bigger than I initially thought). It seemed as if Ned Stark was the character, and he was in Game of Thrones. However, his death was a shock. He didn't die in a glorious battle, or bravely sacrificing his life for another hero in the book, but rather unceremoniously at the hand of the Lannisters, Joffrey, and of course, his own sword, Ice, wielded by Ser Ilyn Payne. So, of course, naturally, you think the Young Wolf, Robb Stark, who has never lost a battle and is seemingly unstoppable, will gloriously avenge his father, set things right and carry the Stark banner. Not the case, when he's butchered, along with his mother and his wolf. I think our expectations, largely based on past fantasy, contributed greatly to the shock value of those deaths. Suddenly, it becomes clear that this story is much bigger, grittier, and much different than what I've read previously. He's certainly proven that major (and loved) characters are fair game and they don't die cliche deaths, but he hasn't killed off that many in reality. But, he does get you in the mindset that this is a little more "realistic" with regards to human nature and interaction than a normal fantasy series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelers7127 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Hang in their young one, their time will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 ASOIAF is one really big long story. Not seven or eight pretty long stories. In the end, the good guys will triumph. Sorta. Gotta have the bitter with the sweet. Frodo saved Middle Earth, but the Shire was scoured and Frodo himself could not really enjoy it either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionFan82 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I think there has been a good deal of revenge, or comeuppance dealt out. I mean the Starks themselves may not have killed this person or that, but people are dying that deserved it. I'm being patient about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Crow Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 Lord Manwoody, good post and well reasoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Baratheon Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I don't think Drogo is a "bad guy" really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionFan82 Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I don't think Drogo is a "bad guy" reallyI agree, I also wouldn't say Renly was bad in comparison to Joffrey, Tywin, or Viserys. I do think though that post, Manwoody & EB's posts are spot on. Many of the people on Arya's list have been killed, and Cersei isn't in good shape at the end of AFFC either. I was holding my breath when reading Jon chapters in ASOS though lol. I don't know where it'll end, but I would assume some of the people who started would make it to the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckal Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Yes, I think you have it wrong. This is a long series where things (realistically) don't always happen immediately. Things happen that frustrate along the way, and when revenge is finally served (if it is), it is that much sweeter.And to be quite honest, yes the Starks have suffered the most in the series so far, but that culminated in book 3. This is only book 4 and the Starks really have no realistic way for revenge right now. Theirs is probably going to be the last in the whole series IMO. Cat has been getting some minimal revenge as zombie Cat, though.The last Arianne chapter where Doran explains everything to her, about Dany and the dragons and revenge...wow I am truly excited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S N Black Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I've been waiting and waiting for Stark revenge since AGoT. But then GRRM made me like Jaime and Littlefinger. Maybe they will get their revenge if Arya, Jon and Dany team up. Or, maybe GRRM will surprise us all and end the series with Sansa on the Iron Throne. Or even Coldhands if the ending is going to be miserably sad. (That last part is not serious) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Crow Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 This poses an interesting thought though....... What if the end game is not as glamorous or satisfying as we would all like. I mean most people assume that Dany will come back to Westeros all dragons blazing, but what then? She frys the Lannisters and everyone else associated with Roberts Rebellion, her Neice and Nephews death??Jon seems fairly certain that the relm will be attacked by the others........ Not that anyone south of the wall really cares.Perhaps moon boy will end up on throne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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