[Book Spoilers] Dear Writers Who Do Not Answer To the Name George R.R. Martin,

[Lord Godric]

So it's your contention that the producers of the show had no intention of showing a battle at all until Martin gave them a script that had fight scenes in it and they suddenly realized that they should show it? Brilliant.

The interview you are referring to is what D&D had resigned themselves to something they may have had to show given the limitations of the budget before deciding to go to HBO for the increased funds for the episode so that they could stage a battle on some kind of larger scale. This was long before Martin submitted a script as all of the writers would need to have a general outline for each episode provided by the producers before knowing how to structure their given hour.

Are people here so obtuse as to not understand what "showrunners" do? They are involved at every stage of the production, they aren't the HBO suits. These guys know the books backwards and forwards and have sat down and spoken to GRRM for countless hours about the direction and plotting of the series and how to best adapt his novels. They aren't some idiots sitting in a room waiting for Martin to tell them how to stage a TV show.

No shit. But I remember many times seeing Martin writing about his script and wondering if they were going to be able to do it at all. I certainly think that it is possible that if David and Dan knew that they were going to write they episode they could have made the decision to not go to HBO and request more money because they would try to make it work their way. Knowing Martin was writing the episode and knowing he writes things much larger for television probably pushed them to decide to show the Battle instead of getting reports about it. In their interview they admit that this episode was given to Martin because he does things big. If he wasn't doing it we probably would have had most of the action coming in the form of reports.

[1234567]

Brilliant episode and the writing was fantastic. The characters felt like they were from the books, which they haven't done in recent episodes!

[King Tommen]

Well your implication was that actually filming the battle of Blackwater wasn't even on D&D's radar until Martin brought it to their attention which seems ridiculous. If you watch that interview and others with D&D, you can see that they very much want to show these battles, were angry about having to cut Tyrion's battle last year but had to remain within budget. There was a clear decision early on in the conception of Season 2 that they absolutely needed to make an exception for Blackwater because of how the entire season builds towards it so they went to HBO with their business case as to why they needed the extra funds to film it.

How anyone takes that interview and makes the leap in logic that Martin told them that they should film the Battle of Blackwater is beyond me. Anyone with half a brain who has read the books knows that filming this battle would be very important which is why they took the extraordinary steps of asking for substantially more money for this one time exception.

I'm not sure where the impression that Martin "writes much larger for television" comes from. Was "The Pointy End" written any larger than any other Season 1 episode? The reason this episode was "big" was because it was Blackwater, not because Martin wrote it. D&D love Martin and wanted to entrust him with a very important episode which happened to be Blackwater, not because he writes teleplays with lots of action scenes (pretty sure that's not something he's known for at all).

[Howdyphillip]

No shit. But I remember many times seeing Martin writing about his script and wondering if they were going to be able to do it at all. I certainly think that it is possible that if David and Dan knew that they were going to write they episode they could have made the decision to not go to HBO and request more money because they would try to make it work their way. Knowing Martin was writing the episode and knowing he writes things much larger for television probably pushed them to decide to show the Battle instead of getting reports about it. In their interview they admit that this episode was given to Martin because he does things big. If he wasn't doing it we probably would have had most of the action coming in the form of reports.

I work in the industry lighting TV and film, so I have a little bit of insight here. I don't know anyone from this production, so I have no real inside scoops, I am just speaking from conjecture.

I don't think that HBO gave two shits who was penning this actual episode when it came down to decisions of increasing budgets. GRRM is signed on for an ep a year, so they certainly want his name at some point on the season, but they didn't pour money in an episode because of the person who wrote it. They increased the budget because it was necessary for the series as a whole. D&D would have written a different script, but they would have still lobbied to get the additional financing, and they would have written in large scale scenes as well.

The only reason that D&D talked about having to write the whole thing from the perspective of Cercei was that they were afraid that the budget wouldn't come through, and that would be the cuts that they were left able to afford. That is why they say they begged for more money.

To tell you the complete truth, I don't believe that they had to beg too hard. HBO knew what they had on their hands, and knew that the extra money they spent would be well worth it for all of the word of mouth and critical acclaim that they would get for the extra dough they spent. This is the kind of money that is spent that actually works for you and turns into more.

[Ran]

Just to reiterate what others have said -- D&D were definitely trying to figure out the battle, and GRRM writing the script didn't magically make it happen. What they have said is that he provided some suggestions for how to rework it to fit the budget. So I'm guessing the idea of using a surprise attack via the tunnels instead of a sally port charge with a bunch of expensive, hard-to-work-with horses was his idea, and presumably he suggested the alternative way to use the wildfire once they realized they couldn't afford the chain and would have to rethink the battle.

[ServantOnIce]

GRRM did write a brilliant episode. However, I gotta hand it to D&D for all that they have done to take this from book to screen and they have done a fantastic job working the source material in with the various constraints. I don't think enough people give them the credit they deserve and that's a shame.

I have been a total jackass to D and D the last few weeks. Until I watched the extra features on HBO GO. I realized what a tool I have been to them and what a blessing, fortune, good thing it is to have two real fans with real talent to do the job they did.

Also, I am sure they know that some things didn't work this season, no need for me are other fools to mention it.

I need to chill out and D and D while they didn't write Blackwater, they did work hard on it and anyone who says they didn't just doesn't know what they are talking about.

GRRM was offered more $$$$ than HBO did to do this series and he trusted D and D and while he likes some changes, some he doesn't he believes it is in good hands.

I owe those guys and apology. I didn't know what on earth I was talking about, many of their critics don't.

[sadfascist]

You mean like when they had Ned warn Yoren about Arya? Yeah, I know inferior. [...]

And it makes complete sense that Tywin would teach his son, his heir how to read even if he hated him for it. It completely fits his character.

"Baelor" was a great episode. The last scene in "Baelor" plus the Robert/Cersei chat in "The Wolf and the Lion" were great additions by D&D.

Again, I am not saying D&D are bad writers. They are just not as good as GRRM and Bryan Cogman. Between the two of them Martin and Cogman are responsible for four very strong episodes with zero bad scenes. I don't think you could pick any four D&D penned episodes without encountering at least one (probably several) egregiously absurd and/or baffling scene along the lines of Ros sexposition, Talisa romance, etc.

My view is that D&D do well when they stick to the source material and much less so when they try to invent storylines out of whole cloth. This is not necessarily a book purist view (though I am a purist) because Bryan Cogman's added scenes are great. I think the difference is that I can envision Cogman's scenes actually taking place in the setting of the story, and for many of D&D's scenes I simply cannot.

P. S. I am wrong about the Twyin/Arya heart to heart. D&D didn't write that one, Vanessa Taylor did. My criticism still stands though.

And there are no such things Ros scenes. She has had one scene dedicated to her this entire series. The rest were Theon, Littlefinger and Joffrey scenes.

Ros has WAY more than one scene in Season 2, but I was actually referring to Season 1. She's better integrated this season.

[Khal-a-bunga]

u dont think it odd that they included a disease which is related to reading and writing when 99% of the population does not read or write?

and then of course heroic father figure can solve that particular problem

yes smacks of needless modernization

How do you know 99% of the population of Westeros couldn't read or write? That wouldn't even make much sense, given that you can approximate the relative literacy of the people of Westeros by comparing it to chronologically parallel cultures in our own history (if we're going to make assumptions, that is). Beyond your completely made up figure of the literacy rates in Westeros, you're also ignoring the fact that dyslexia - being a mild and often correctable brain defect - has nothing to do with overall literacy rates, whatsoever. Human beings have been reading and writing for thousands of years at this point in our history, and to think that dyslexia came about in the modern age (and therefore represents a relatively new type of disorder) shows a gross misunderstanding of how dyslexia works and is also just an all-around stupid complaint to level against the show. I get that it feels out of place and somehow modern to you, but if you're going to level asinine complaints against anything (in this instance, a television show) then try to at least know something about what you're talking about.

[sagaz]

I'm not saying D&D are bad writers, just not as good as Bryan Cogman and GRRM. And it shows.

The first season is better because D&D stuck closer to the source material of the books. When they did not do so (i.e. Ros), the result was almost invariably inferior.

To me, the idea that Tywin of all people would spend time teaching his dyslexic son to read is absurd. YMMV.

EDIT: And to tell this story to random servant girl Arya is doubleplus absurd.

A man who can't read is at a severe disadvantage to his noble peers, they would run rings around him. Tywin would not want his heir to have that weakness, or any weakness. And I dare say that knowing Jaime, only Tywin could sit him down and force him to learn.

It wasn't in the books for god's sake!

No seriously nothing was wrong with it, it was perfectly in tone Tywin and the kind of man he is. If his son can't do something, he will damn make sure he will do it.

what is absurd is the needless modernizing by including dyslexia.

I think the dyslexia thing has more to do with Tywin shunning Tyrion than with Jaime. Tywin has brilliant son, but isn't Jaime. (and also think is a very good setup for everything that happens after blackwater.

I believe Ros is a very elegant plot device.... she will take the form of every salient whore in the novels. I'll bet that she will be in the brothel where the BwB take Arya and Gendry, (or maybe she'll be in Braavos when Sam kicks Dareon) and will be one of the whores from mole town in the wall, throwing arrows at the wildlings with Jon and Satin when Stannis arrive... the same way they put her in Alayaya place this season.

And I like Robb's storyline.

I think somewhat the changes are made to give something new to the readers, within the scope of the story. something to look forward to the next episode.

[The Other Knight]

"Baelor" was a great episode. The last scene in "Baelor" plus the Robert/Cersei chat in "The Wolf and the Lion" were great additions by D&D.

Again, I am not saying D&D are bad writers. They are just not as good as GRRM and Bryan Cogman. Between the two of them Martin and Cogman are responsible for four very strong episodes with zero bad scenes. I don't think you could pick any four D&D penned episodes without encountering at least one (probably several) egregiously absurd and/or baffling scene along the lines of Ros sexposition, Talisa romance, etc.

My view is that D&D do well when they stick to the source material and much less so when they try to invent storylines out of whole cloth. This is not necessarily a book purist view (though I am a purist) because Bryan Cogman's added scenes are great. I think the difference is that I can envision Cogman's scenes actually taking place in the setting of the story, and for many of D&D's scenes I simply cannot.

P. S. I am wrong about the Twyin/Arya heart to heart. D&D didn't write that one, Vanessa Taylor did. My criticism still stands though.

Ros has WAY more than one scene in Season 2, but I was actually referring to Season 1. She's better integrated this season.

The big problem with your post is that Ros doesn't have scenes structured around her. She is there in complete service to other characters. Those aren't Ros scenes. They are Theon, Tyrion, Littlefinger scenes.

[Lord Godric]

I'm not sure where the impression that Martin "writes much larger for television" comes from. Was "The Pointy End" written any larger than any other Season 1 episode? The reason this episode was "big" was because it was Blackwater, not because Martin wrote it. D&D love Martin and wanted to entrust him with a very important episode which happened to be Blackwater, not because he writes teleplays with lots of action scenes (pretty sure that's not something he's known for at all).

Actually David says that no one writes those scenes better than George.

George created the world that we’ve lived in for the past six and a half years, so the word “contribution” doesn’t encompass the scale of what he’s provided for the series. We were at the Paint Hall with him during season one, showing him one of the sets, and he said, “So this is where they’ll shoot the scene from my episode?” And we looked at each other and one of us said, “George, they’re all your episodes.” The characters sprang from his brain, so did all the major storylines, so did all the prominent characters. We wanted to give him “Blackwater” to write because no one writes better large-scale battles than George. Ultimately we had to sacrifice some of that scale. There are some wonderful moments from the script (and book) that we wish we could have afforded. But when you’re delivering ten hours of epic fantasy in less time than a studio feature delivers two hours, it just isn’t possible to shoot everything you want. It always comes back to horses or Stonehenge.

And it was never my intent to say that they showed the battle only because of Martin - simply that Martin pushed the boundaries of what they did show. If anyone else wrote it it probably would have focused a lot more on what happened inside with Sansa and Cersei and that we can't say that 'regardless of who wrote the episode' we'd see the greatness of what we saw, because that just isn't a guaranteed fact.

[The Other Knight]

Actually David says that no one writes those scenes better than George. And it was never my intent to say that they showed the battle only because of Martin - simply that Martin pushed the boundaries of what they did show. If anyone else wrote it it probably would have focused a lot more on what happened inside with Sansa and Cersei and that we can't say that 'regardless of who wrote the episode' we'd see the greatness of what we saw, because that just isn't a guaranteed fact.

You do realize the inverse is also true right?

[ServantOnIce]

How do you know 99% of the population of Westeros couldn't read or write?

Westeros is based on Medieval Western Europe, particularly the British Isles and except for Nobility and Clergy no one would read or write. There was no mass public education and no push for learning letters in the home. So the statistics he quoted are accurate. I have heard that around only 3% of people could read or write. That is why folks like Shae and Bronn should not be able to read or write.

Also, there was no social advancement, folks lived and died in their same social classes they were born in. Maybe you could luck out and become clergy and learn how to read or write . . but that was about it and even that was a long shot.

Stop thinking modern . . think primitive this was primitive warfare in a primitive culture . . . folks had no idea of the scientific method or research . .

[Khal-a-bunga]

Westeros is based on Medieval Western Europe, particularly the British Isles and except for Nobility and Clergy no one would read or write. There was no mass public education and no push for learning letters in the home. So the statistics he quoted are accurate. I have heard that around only 3% of people could read or write. That is why folks like Shae and Bronn should not be able to read or write.

Also, there was no social advancement, folks lived and died in their same social classes they were born in. Maybe you could luck out and become clergy and learn how to read or write . . but that was about it and even that was a long shot.

Stop thinking modern . . think primitive this was primitive warfare in a primitive culture . . . folks had no idea of the scientific method or research . .

Despite the fact that Westeros is loosely based on medieval Western Europe, based on the novels and the appendices, I think it's fair to assume that literacy rates would have been more akin to that of the Roman Empire. Also, since Westeros has only one wide-spread language in use, and the fact that religion plays a large role in the day-to-day life of the people would lead to that conclusion. Regardless, none of this has any bearing on the fact that dyslexia exists because people are capable of reading and writing. The idea that dyslexia is strictly a modern-day disorder has no scientific basis, and doesn't make sense as a complaint against the writing on the show.

[zmflavius]

While I liked this episode the most, personally, I don't hold much against the staff writers; there was, yes, a deal which could have been done better, and some episodes I didn't especially like, but none of them were especially "tear out my eyes and ears bad."

[Reposado]

They aren't some idiots sitting in a room waiting for Martin to tell them how to stage a TV show.

maybe they should be, after seeing this episode penned my martin. the other writes can create some good scenes, but generally the episodes they produce are poorly structured and paced.

[SerMixalot]

How do you know 99% of the population of Westeros couldn't read or write? That wouldn't even make much sense, given that you can approximate the relative literacy of the people of Westeros by comparing it to chronologically parallel cultures in our own history (if we're going to make assumptions, that is). Beyond your completely made up figure of the literacy rates in Westeros, you're also ignoring the fact that dyslexia - being a mild and often correctable brain defect - has nothing to do with overall literacy rates, whatsoever. Human beings have been reading and writing for thousands of years at this point in our history, and to think that dyslexia came about in the modern age (and therefore represents a relatively new type of disorder) shows a gross misunderstanding of how dyslexia works and is also just an all-around stupid complaint to level against the show. I get that it feels out of place and somehow modern to you, but if you're going to level asinine complaints against anything (in this instance, a television show) then try to at least know something about what you're talking about.

well, isnt that a pleasant post

the facts are that westeros is based on a middle aged society where the vast majority could not read or write (well over 95%-so my 99% is only a slight exaggeration) and well before the advent of the the age of reason and the birth of the scientific method. So the logical assumption for a student that had dislexia, was that they were just plain dumb and any effort to teach them their letterings would be stopped for more productive ends. The knowledge that a child was seeing letters reversed or mixed up would not be assimmilated by the teachers. Combine that with the relative rarity of the disease, simply makes this scenario-a child with dislexia being high born enough to be taught and the symptoms recognized instead of ignored, a solution found and the disease overcome, somewhat ridiculous for the setting.

Sorry if you dont see it that way

[The Other Knight]

maybe they should be, after seeing this episode penned my martin. the other writes can create some good scenes, but generally the episodes they produce are poorly structured and paced.

How many are allowed to stay in one location for 55 mins?

[Versiroth]

George Martim should write all the episodes

I think the other writers are doing just fine. Sure, I'd LOVE to have Martin write them all, but I'd much rather him get out books 6 and 7 before I turn 40 (I'm 32...). With what he's done in the past, that likely wont happen even if he sticks to writing the books only. If he jumped into the show, we may not ever get the proper conclusion.

[Strider]

It was a great episode and GRRM deserves all the applause and praise he is receiving. I'm not sure if this is my favorite episode of the two seasons, but it's certainly in the top three or four.

It should also be noted that this may have been the easiest episode yet to write. The story and action is concentrated around King's Landing. In the previous episodes the writers were faced with the challenge of multiple story lines, jumping back and forth between Bran in Winterfell, Cercei, Joffrey, Sansa, and Tyrion in King's Landing; Robb and Catelyn and the Northern army; Renly, Loras, and Margaery; Stannis, Davos, and Meilisandre; Theon in Pike and later Winterfell, Jon beyond the Wall, etc., etc. It's very hard to pull all of this together into a unified whole in 60 minutes, which is one reason why so many of this season's episodes have not felt as compelling as last season's. If faced with the task of writing all the episodes, could GRRM have done a better job than the other writers? I don't know.

In any case, kudos to Martin for a brilliant episode.