[Book Spoilers] Is SanSan Dead and Buried?

[Caro99]

Hmmm Christina, I think you may be on to something here. Maybe Sansa was going to go with him after she gives him that lingering beautiful look when she states he won’t hurt her. But just then Sandor realized that he shouldn’t make such a promise cause harm may come to her if she leaves with him (whether it’s thanks to him or for other reason), so he decided to go away. I’m sure he knows staying alone in KL with Joff for company isn’t safe, but maybe, since there is some sexual attraction in there, he realized he could end up being a danger to her innocence or something… but I like this theory cause it both makes Sandor a man who is willing to sacrifice his wishes for the well-being of the little bird and it also makes Sansa for non-book readers less “foolish” for not going away with him.

Juliads, unfortunately they don’t meet again after he leaves her room for at least the next 3 books, but there is a popular theory going around that his Hound identity died but Sandor is still alive in a sort of Westesori rehabilitation center… I’m not sure how much I should say if you have not read the books, but if S3 ends or includes a certain major event where he and arya are concerned, then we may very well see him in S4 as well! Aww, poor non-book readers who think she did elope with him. I’m sure that even if I had not read the books by now, I would definitely be intrigued by San/San and would be just like this lot! Lol, I mean, I’ve read the books more than once and I still for a moment felt convinced that the show had changed their storylines so she could run away with him. I know it was mad since it would mean a lot of important future plot changes, but until we got the preview for next week I was stunned into believing this. :dunno: silly me :blushing:

[FiveByeSeven]

:bang: :bang: If I had a dollar for everytime someone interpreted this relationship wrong... well... I would be able to buy a lot more aspirin for my headaches.

This has to be one of the most asinine comments I have ever read anywhere. Clearly the product of someone who has a poor understanding of literature and its relationship with readers.

It's impossible to even appreciate the point of view of those who believe in a pairing as outlandish as Sandor and Sansa when some of its loudest proponents are smug, self-righteous, and narrow. Reminds me of the worst sort of fans from the animated Avatar series.

[Valkyrja]

Juliads, while Sansa and Sandor have yet to meet up again in the book series, keep in mind that the book series is still unfinished at this point, so there is a chance they may meet up again. I do not believe that Sandor is dead. His persona of the Hound may be, but I feel that he is alive and in hiding. Whether or not he reappears in the story, we'll just have to see.

Nevertheless, despite the fact that neither of them have seen each other again since the night at the Blackwater, both characters in the books seem to think of one another a great deal. Sansa thinks of Sandor in almost all of her subsequent chapters, either comparing other men to him, wishing that he were still there, wrapping herself in his cloak, misremembering the night of the Blackwater until she thinks for sure that he kissed her (in the books he nearly does, so the mismemory is slightly more understandable), and finally, in her later chapters she even has a fairly risque dream (some say its a nightmare) that includes Sandor climbing into her bed. Sandor, for his part, rather frequently mentions 'the pretty little bird' that he seems to regret leaving in King's Landing.....at least, it stands out as fairly frequently, coming from him of all people.

Some say that San/San shippers just magnify the importance of such remembrances, but I say that this is clear and present in the text, and at the very least (regardless of any sexual or romantic undertones) the characters' continued thoughts about each other signify just how much the complicated 'relationship' meant to each of them.

Whether they ever meet up again or not, Sandor continues to play a part in the story after this point, so we should expect to see him around in the HBO series for at least the next season, hopefully the next two seasons. :)

[Kittykatknits]

Nevertheless, despite the fact that neither of them have seen each other again since the night at the Blackwater, both characters in the books seem to think of one another a great deal. Sansa thinks of Sandor in almost all of her subsequent chapters, either comparing other men to him, wishing that he were still there, wrapping herself in his cloak, misremembering the night of the Blackwater until she thinks for sure that he kissed her (in the books he nearly does, so the mismemory is slightly more understandable), and finally, in her later chapters she even has a fairly risque dream (some say its a nightmare) that includes Sandor climbing into her bed. Sandor, for his part, rather frequently mentions 'the pretty little bird' that he seems to regret leaving in King's Landing.....at least, it stands out as fairly frequently, coming from him of all people.

Some say that San/San shippers just magnify the importance of such remembrances, but I say that this is clear and present in the text, and at the very least (regardless of any sexual or romantic undertones) the characters' continued thoughts about each other signify just how much the complicated 'relationship' meant to each of them.

Sandor speaks of her with a surprising amount of emotion when we consider who he is. I thought it was rather sad and sweet when he spoke of her giving him a song with such pride. His despair when he learned of her marriage was very powerful too.

I think there is a good chance we will see him for the next two seasons actually if the two big weddings are split amongst seasons as I think they will be.

[WinterWarrior]

I don't agree that he withdrew his offer. I think she refused him.

I am a big supporter of San/San and think they will get together some day and he will die protecting her or rescuing her from something at some point.

I think the HBO San/San scene that Martin wrote in "Blackwater" stands alone and should not be clouded by the book scene. I think it is totally about Sansa coming into her own and into womanhood, leaving childhood behind. She is in the middle of her first flowering, she handled being cooped up with the women during the battle better than Cersei did, she is back in her room thinking she is safe and Stannis is winning and will soon liberate her, and then there is the Hound.

Sansa stands her own, does not seem to be afraid of him after a while and says "no" to this very powerful man. He respects that and leaves. I think the fact that he does not touch her or come on to her in a sexual way empowers her to a certain extent. It is one of the few times during her captivity at KL that she can say "no" and it means something, someone powerful listens (even though the Hound is powerful in a physical way, not royal power). She lets go of her doll in that scene as she lets go of victimhood and childhood (in my opinon).

I think her words "I know you will not hurt me" speaks volumes about her sense of self and the fact that there is a bond of trust that she has with him. This is setting us up for some later San/San event in the future. I do believe he is in love with her and she is drawn to him.

[Valkyrja]

WinterWarrior, I think you make an excellent observation and a very interesting interpretation.... thank you for sharing! :)

I agree that HBO Sansa has refused the offer. It is easy to get mixed up if we think about the books here, but Book-Sansa does *not* outright refuse the Hound. Book-Hound is MUCH more emotionally unstable and incredibly drunk at this point, and from what I understand of that scene, he THINKS she is refusing the offer, and basically leaves before she really has a chance to process what has happened. I agree that they've given HBO Sansa more agency in this scene, which fits given that she is older in the show and it also fits in more with the characterization of these two characters in the show (HBO-Hound is less scary and physically agressive towards Sansa, HBO-Sansa is older and less frightened, especially during the Blackwater episode where she seems to come into her own.)

As much as I would have loved to have seen the book scene come to life, it was just completely unrealistic, as the characterization of Sansa and the Hound in the show is different enough at this point that it would not have worked to do the scene from the book.

At this point, I am just SO glad they kept that scene in at all. It definitely had viewers and reviewers talking about San/San in a way that I did NOT expect. :)

[Woman of War]

I am suggesting a mindgame here:

Imagine you only and definitely only have seen HBO and be honest about it:

And then imagine Sandor were gay, I know he isn't, no need to convince me.

I think his actions towards Sansa in S2 so far would all be the same if he had acted out of basic human compassion, honesty and the sincere wish to help, apart from somewhat liking that girl. And he expresses those emotions as far as a damaged personality like Sandor is able to express them. Would he express them differently if he only had a "fatherly" concern?

Would his kindness towards Sansa have taken any other shape than it does here in HBO if he had no sexual interest in her, because for example he might be gay, only as mindgame here?

i believe there might have been exactly the same exchanges between them, exactly the same kindness towards her if we assume there is no erotic tension. And it is well possible that Martin, having written this episode, is perfectly aware of it. He consciously left out the rapey undertones and the idea of a kiss. Which, logically, does ot mean that there will never be any erotic attraction but so far there is none given by the HBO script.

So my point is: there are no erotic undertones to feel in this episode, only concern from Sandor's side. Or are there any?

[Valkyrja]

Just because the erotic/romantic/sexual undertones were not included from the book, does not mean that none were conveyed, even if accidentally. I've seen plenty of reviews from non-book readers saying that it seemed to them that the Hound had special feelings for Sansa. I think that is one thing that cannot be denied here.....whether in the books or in the show: it is not 'just' basic human compassion that makes Sandor care for Sansa during their time together at King's Landing. There are other people who are in states of distress at various times (take Lollys, for example) during this time, that he did not help. Sandor is attracted to Sansa for who she is, and wants helping her, from very early on. Whether this attraction is fatherly, sexual, romantic, etc. , none of the above or a strange combination is thus far left to the interpretation of the reader. :)

[Woman of War]

Yes, the attraction is "special", no doubt. Maybe Sansa represents his lost childhood, maybe his last chance of return into humanity, maybe his wish to finally do something right, maybe sexual desire. In the books he has grossly botched that situation and Sansa herself was of course aware of the threat to her life with the knife on her throat. But she was ot aware of the danger of getting raped, she merely expected a kiss, about that she had heard in her stories, about everything else she knew nothing. Whereas HBO Sansa had not only nearly been raped in the streets, she had heard about rape all day long and would have recognized that kind of threat straightaway. The plotline could not be written the same way and so everything is open to different interpretations. In episode 9 so far Sandor has done much better, no sexual approach. I am as well convinced that the two characters will meet again and that this might be the real test what Sandor has made of his life.

You cannot compare Sansa to Lollys because Sandor, in the books, expressly states that he hates cripples and the weak like Lollys and Tyrion. This is indeed a very ugly side of him, distinguishing between the weak who are worthy of his concern, like especially Sansa, and those mishappen who are scum to him like Lollys and Tyrion. The quality of "special" that Sansa represents to him is imo open here. Could he, always within the HBO script, feel the same wish to help a, say, ten year old innocent, wonderful and goldenhearted boy, who gets tortured and abused and who might represent the child Sandor would have wanted to be? Or not?

[Valkyrja]

Sorry, your are right, Lollys was a bad example, but was the only one I could think of off the top of my head.

Regarding if Sansa were a boy, would he still care for her in a special way.......I really have no idea.

I don't understand the need to play 'mind games' with this issue.....yes, stepping back and looking at things from different perspective is always good. Nevertheless, I'm hardly going to change my mind about liking 'San/San' just because I am imagining for a second that the Hound is gay. ;)

I stand by my belief that the sexual/violent aspect of their relationship was toned down for the TV show because it might make Sandor's character much less sympathetic to tv audience, and it would probably be extremely uncomfortable for the actors portraying these characters. Despite being aged up for the tv series, the age gap between HBO Hound and Sansa is even wider than in the books. I think they set out from the beginning to 'tone down' the character of the Hound so that hardly any of his 'intense' scenes with Sansa would need to happen the way they do in the books.

[Woman of War]

Well, I guess, that way Martin has taken himself the freedom to do with that relationship whatever he wants in the future without having it burdened with something definite already. You can put much more subtlety into a written story than into the less ambigous medium movie. In a book things are open to interpretation, whereas in a show like that they are done or not and images can have an impact that cannot be taken back.

In cinema it's ALL about looks that are exchanged, and these special LOOKS I am missing here.

And don't get me wrong, I am a movie addict.

[Kittykatknits]

I don't agree that he withdrew his offer. I think she refused him.

I am a big supporter of San/San and think they will get together some day and he will die protecting her or rescuing her from something at some point.

I think the HBO San/San scene that Martin wrote in "Blackwater" stands alone and should not be clouded by the book scene. I think it is totally about Sansa coming into her own and into womanhood, leaving childhood behind. She is in the middle of her first flowering, she handled being cooped up with the women during the battle better than Cersei did, she is back in her room thinking she is safe and Stannis is winning and will soon liberate her, and then there is the Hound.

Sansa stands her own, does not seem to be afraid of him after a while and says "no" to this very powerful man. He respects that and leaves. I think the fact that he does not touch her or come on to her in a sexual way empowers her to a certain extent. It is one of the few times during her captivity at KL that she can say "no" and it means something, someone powerful listens (even though the Hound is powerful in a physical way, not royal power). She lets go of her doll in that scene as she lets go of victimhood and childhood (in my opinon).

I think her words "I know you will not hurt me" speaks volumes about her sense of self and the fact that there is a bond of trust that she has with him. This is setting us up for some later San/San event in the future. I do believe he is in love with her and she is drawn to him.

I agree with your interpretation, very well stated. I thought it was rather apparent that she refused him but everyone who I have talked to in RL and have not read the books thought she went with him. So, it probably wasn't that clear to many viewers.

The important takeaway from this scene is to show that she trusts him and feel confident that he would never hurt her.

It's been my theory for a long time that they will cross paths and he'll end up dying for her. The vibe from the show was different than the books but the way that scene ended really left met even more confident about it afterwards than I did before.

Well, I guess, that way Martin has taken himself the freedom to do with that relationship whatever he wants in the future without having it burdened with something definite already. You can put much more subtlety into a written story than into the less ambigous medium movie. In a book things are open to interpretation, whereas in a show like that they are done or not and images can have an impact that cannot be taken back.

In cinema it's ALL about looks that are exchanged, and these special LOOKS I am missing here.

And don't get me wrong, I am a movie addict.

I've been reading online reviews and talking to people in RL all week who have not read the books and the reactions have a big range. Some of have said his feelings are merely those of someone who wants to protect her while others thought he loved her. It's all over the map, which I think reflects the reaction of fans of the books.

As for the looks, there were a few of them, the look in season one when he took her to the queen, his watching her after the conversation, and the looks between them in the last episode. A few people thought he was in love with her because of those.

So, I think it's open but I do agree the obvious sexual component has been removed. Since this is for a TV show, I can understand the decision.

Although, the dynamic between the two in Clash reminds me quite a bit of the movie Labyrinth if you have ever seen that. I'd like to have seen some of that on the screen.

[Juliads]

I am suggesting a mindgame here:

Imagine you only and definitely only have seen HBO and be honest about it:

And then imagine Sandor were gay, I know he isn't, no need to convince me.

I think his actions towards Sansa in S2 so far would all be the same if he had acted out of basic human compassion, honesty and the sincere wish to help, apart from somewhat liking that girl. And he expresses those emotions as far as a damaged personality like Sandor is able to express them. Would he express them differently if he only had a "fatherly" concern?

Would his kindness towards Sansa have taken any other shape than it does here in HBO if he had no sexual interest in her, because for example he might be gay, only as mindgame here?

i believe there might have been exactly the same exchanges between them, exactly the same kindness towards her if we assume there is no erotic tension. And it is well possible that Martin, having written this episode, is perfectly aware of it. He consciously left out the rapey undertones and the idea of a kiss. Which, logically, does ot mean that there will never be any erotic attraction but so far there is none given by the HBO script.

So my point is: there are no erotic undertones to feel in this episode, only concern from Sandor's side. Or are there any?

good question, and i love a mindgame!

If there were any erotic undertones to the scene, it would be up to the individual viewer to decide. I suppose that question has been on everyone's mind whenever a san/san moment pops up. If tv Sandor was motivated by any physical attraction it was displayed very subtly. What I really enjoy about their scenes together is this apparant brute, a violent killer is compelled to show concern for Sansa's well being, and I suspect a great deal of restraint around her too. This last episode revealed more of his personality to the tv viewers, more vulgar, violent,etc. Yet I felt that the bedroom scene was his strongest sign of restraint. When he responded to her with "no, i won't hurt you" He seemed subdued and a little defeated.

I'm not a reader of the novels, but If his character has been curtailing any of his mannerisms or behavior for her comfort, I imagine that would be a strong sign of some type of affection forming, at least on his behalf.

Whether or not it is sexual or more paternal, it is very hard to say with only the tv scenes to rely on. My guess is, there might be a combination of reasons, but physical attraction is probably one of the factors.

If he were gay would he have the same reaction to Sansa? it's hard to answer because i don't really know what motivates him. Is he kind to other defenseless young females in KL, or just Sansa because of the abuse she recieves from the king?

My guess is he's not shown any thought or care about another person's(male or female) well-being besides Sansa, and that has been very crypic at best. If the attraction between them both was withdrawn..I would gamble he would grow to dislike the king for his abusive ways just the same, but not have the extra focus on Sansa herself. He might not have taken the time to search for her during the riots, etc.

I do love their story-lines, give me something to over-analyze ^_^ !

[Fragile Bird]

question to the book readers....

After the blackwater battle, when he offers to take her and she declines, is this the last that they see of each other?

and hasn't he actually been killed in the novels, i seem to recall hearing some posters mentioning that...Does that mean we will see the last of him in S3? Such a great character and talented actor, it would be a shame if they continue to give him abbreviated scenes then kill him off.

Lol! You shouldn't be asking these questions, and we shouldn't be telling you. Read very carefully. AFFC.

[Woman of War]

Omigod, selfspoilering! This is like unwrapping your birthday gifts one day too early! Don't!

[Kittykatknits]

good question, and i love a mindgame!

If there were any erotic undertones to the scene, it would be up to the individual viewer to decide. I suppose that question has been on everyone's mind whenever a san/san moment pops up. If tv Sandor was motivated by any physical attraction it was displayed very subtly. What I really enjoy about their scenes together is this apparant brute, a violent killer is compelled to show concern for Sansa's well being, and I suspect a great deal of restraint around her too. This last episode revealed more of his personality to the tv viewers, more vulgar, violent,etc. Yet I felt that the bedroom scene was his strongest sign of restraint. When he responded to her with "no, i won't hurt you" He seemed subdued and a little defeated.

I'm not a reader of the novels, but If his character has been curtailing any of his mannerisms or behavior for her comfort, I imagine that would be a strong sign of some type of affection forming, at least on his behalf.

Whether or not it is sexual or more paternal, it is very hard to say with only the tv scenes to rely on. My guess is, there might be a combination of reasons, but physical attraction is probably one of the factors.

If he were gay would he have the same reaction to Sansa? it's hard to answer because i don't really know what motivates him. Is he kind to other defenseless young females in KL, or just Sansa because of the abuse she recieves from the king?

My guess is he's not shown any thought or care about another person's(male or female) well-being besides Sansa, and that has been very crypic at best. If the attraction between them both was withdrawn..I would gamble he would grow to dislike the king for his abusive ways just the same, but not have the extra focus on Sansa herself. He might not have taken the time to search for her during the riots, etc.

I do love their story-lines, give me something to over-analyze ^_^ !

Love your thoughts here, I like getting the perspective from someone who has not read the books.

Also, his behavior with Sansa is the first and only time we see him showing these type of feelings for anyone else. In the books, he even talks about the fact that he has killed women and children before.

[Kittykatknits]

Omigod, selfspoilering! This is like unwrapping your birthday gifts one day too early! Don't!

Eh, i have a pretty strict policy about reading the last couple pages of books as a general rule. I want to know what type of ending I'm in for before I put the effort in to reading a book. I'm probably in the minority on this though.

[Fragile Bird]

Eh, i have a pretty strict policy about reading the last couple pages of books as a general rule. I want to know what type of ending I'm in for before I put the effort in to reading a book. I'm probably in the minority on this though.

So do I, I have no shame about self-spoiling in a mystery and finding out who the killer is,or in a romance to find out if they get married, but reading the last chapter in ASOIF isn't going to get you anywhere. I am very disappointed in those who are telling Juliads things she should read for herself, lol. Let her suffer like the rest of us did. :bawl:

[Woman of War]

I guess, with the next book I will do that with my favorite POVs, only to know if they are still alive or not - and what am I going to do if they arent??? Defenestrate the books or read them?

Well i guess I will read them and get adapted. My family is anyway always accusing mo of listening to depri-music like Garbarek or June Tabor or Mark Knopfler or early music with original instruments. so I will be able to stand original literary depression :D

[Kittykatknits]

I guess, with the next book I will do that with my favorite POVs, only to know if they are still alive or not - and what am I going to do if they arent??? Defenestrate the books or read them?

Well i guess I will read them and get adapted. My family is anyway always accusing mo of listening to depri-music like Garbarek or June Tabor or Mark Knopfler or early music with original instruments. so I will be able to stand original literary depression :D

I expect to do much the same with the first book and don't mind saying that in public.

If your favorites are dead, then you may have the same reaction as I did to Ned and the RW. Twelve years later and I'm still grieving. I am mentally preparing for more of the same. :)

Is it to much to hope that none of them to die? Yeah, I know, wishful thinking.

And Mark Knopfler - Oh, be still my heart. Love his voice, love his music. I think I know what I'm going to go listen to now.