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[Book Spoilers] Is SanSan Dead and Buried?


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#241 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:02 PM

Is curious, Crys, my mother's name is Ruth...
..less...
/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />..
The world of Westeros is full of violence and it permeates their relationships. At the personalities of the characters too. So do not believe that in "our" world could happen in that way, with the extreme expression of emotions even more violentTTT. Is for that reason I said ..ultimately..and archetype. because the world of westeros ..is a world "in extremis" and the situations, and the relationships are "in extremis".

P.D.:.…Only for the records.
/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />... It´s curious that you hate the hate, the violence , but-at the same time-that you like so much .... ASOIAF. /lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

Only for the records ..of course /cool4.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cool4:' />

Edited by Little Red Riding Hood, 21 November 2012 - 12:33 PM.


#242 Feather Crystal

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

Nobody likes violence, and its bizarre of you to say that a person would have to enjoy violence to enjoy the books. It might be helpful for you to imagine what it might be like for a 25 year old woman who is attracted to a 14 year old boy. How would that make you feel? What would you think of a female, old enough to have graduated from college and to see her pursue a 14 year old 8th grader. Does that gross you out? It does me.

Our society has made it seem acceptable for older men to pursue younger women, and our advertising is full of it. It makes me sad and mad every time I see a young girl being sexualized.

And men who chase younger women are desperate to find a reason to claim that what is a culturally constructed choice is really an unavoidable biological reality. The difficult-to-deny reality is, that younger women lack the experience and wisdom to call their older lovers on their bullshit. One of the main reasons older men lust for underage women is the desire to control them. In addition, men desire to have their egos stoked by believing that they are still attractive to younger women.

There’s nothing innocent or harmless or healthy about older men pursuing substantially younger women. The cost is high to everyone involved. While a few young women may say they are attracted to much older guys, it's often because they falsely imagine themselves to be “so much more mature” than “other girls” their age.

Lynn Phillips, a psychology professor at New York University, did a famous study of young women (mostly under legal age) who were in relationships with significantly older men. Most of the girls she interviewed described these affairs as mutual, exciting, and fulfilling. They pushed back against the suggestion that they were being exploited, claiming in many cases to have initiated or at least welcomed the sex with older men. Phillips then interviewed a similar number of older women. Each of these was over 30, and each had been in a relationship with a much older man while still in her teens. With the benefit of hindsight and experience, these older women acknowledged that they’d been used and hurt and exploited. They admitted that their claims of maturity and sexual adventurousness were all a pretense.

When adult men sexualize teen girls, even just by ogling them, the girls are re-enforced with the idea that their worth in the world is dependent on how sexy they are. Girls who choose men so far out of their age ranges tend toward low self-esteem and depression. These aren’t sweet coming-of-age stories. They are pornographic story lines that young girls are eager for sexual initiation at the hands of an older, wiser mentor.

#243 Woman of War

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:15 PM

Great, Feather Crystal, that is about the best post I have read about this topic in these forums.
/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />

#244 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:36 PM

Maybe, I have not explained well, I'm not saying that "you should" love violence, what I say is that violence, hatred, love and kindness are part of our very nature, because we are human and that is an essential component of the novel that we like. Or you deny that ASOIAF is terribly violent?
That does not mean that I advocate violence, you see it in my post?: No.

Nor defend the relations of old men with teenagers. That's not what I defend. Please, read my post. I am against it ( for that reason, Littlefinger or Craster or Walder Frey disgusts me so much).
What I advocate is the archetype of this unique relationship. I think it is clear in my post.
What I advocate is, say, that they are the exception of that rule (as my father and my mother are the exception). Because the bond is established in spite of the age. Beyond age, beauty, education, intelligence, or social classes, they established a bond like human beings.

An attraction between two human beings.

Edited by Little Red Riding Hood, 21 November 2012 - 04:07 PM.


#245 Feather Crystal

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:49 PM

Maybe, I have not explained well, I'm not saying that "you should" love violence, what I say is that violence, hatred, love and kindness are part of our very nature, because we are human and that is an essential component of the novel that we like. Or you deny that ASOIAF is terribly violent?
That does not mean that I advocate violence, you see it in my post?: No.

Nor defend the relations of old men with teenagers. That's not what I defend. Please, read my post. I am against it ( for that reason, Littlefinger or Craster or Walder Frey disgusts me so much).
What I advocate is the archetype of this unique relationship. I think it is clear in my post.
What I advocate is, say, that they are the exception of that rule (as my father and my mother are the exception). Because the bond is established in spite of the age. Beyond age, beauty, education, intelligence, or social classes, they established a bond like human beings.

An attraction between two human beings.


I think ASOIAF is very realistic. I actually think GRRM is making a political and religious statement. He was a Vietnam war conscientious objector, after all. And I'd like to think that GRRM is more enlightened about male/female relationships. He recognizes that some males are attracted to much younger females, but I refuse to believe that he actually intends to have Sandor and Sansa become lovers. I think he understands that it is wrong, and I'm hoping for he'll pen Sansa to become stronger, confident, and more mature and realize that Sandor is not what she really wants or needs.

#246 Le Cygne

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:18 PM

It's romance, Westeros style, and I wouldn't have it any other way. He protected her, and she trusted him. He wanted to kiss her, and she imagined he did. He broke down because of the wildfire, and she understood. He felt terrible that he left her, and she wished he was there. He couldn't stop talking about her, and she couldn't stop thinking about him. There's something there in the books, and there's something there in the show.

I wasn't real thrilled with season 2 and yet I loved the show SanSan scenes. They were even better the second time. The actors are wonderful. Favorites are 1x08 The Pointy End (another GRRM episode) and 2x06 The Old Gods and The New and 2x09 Blackwater was a great Sandor episode all around. I wish there were more but I like all of them. The bedroom scene was odd (I guess it was just chance he was sent there then), but I'll take it.

Why didn't Sandor leave his cloak? Why didn't Cersei order the killing of the bastards? Why did she slap Joffrey? Why did Jaime kill his cousin? Why didn't he call Brienne "Wench" (at least Sandor called Sansa "Little Bird")? Why was Brienne a bloodthirsty killer? Why didn't Catelyn make Jaime swear an oath? Why didn't Ghost help Jon beat Qhorin? Why did Ygritte run away instead of Jon let her go? Why didn't Arya kill the guard? Why did she have such an easy time in Harrenhal? Why did Jaqen kill the Tickler? Why did they cut good Jaqen scenes? Why was Dany's storyline changed beyond recognition? Why did Joffrey torture the prostitute? Why didn't the men of Westeros take off their clothes, too? Why were Shae and Tywin so nice? Why was Littlefinger everywhere? Why was Ros everywhere (or even there at all)? Why didn't Renly eat a peach? Why did Brienne kill the Rainbow Guards instead of Loras? Why Talisa instead of Jeyne? Why take away Robb's honorable reason for breaking his promise?

I wish I knew. The point is, they made a lot of changes.

And here's an interview with GRRM on Geek and Sundry, after this episode aired:

Interviewer 1: "I'm a big fan of the Hound, myself, actually…"

GRRM: "I do know there's all these people out there, who are as they call themselves the SanSan fans, who want to see Sandor and Sansa get together in the end."

Interviewer 2: "The TV show has played with that a little, probably stoked those fires, I would think."

GRRM: "Well sure, and I've played with it in the books, there's something there, but it's still interesting to see how many people have responded to it."

Interviewer 1: "I'm not going to say that hasn't crossed my mind."


http://www.youtube.c...h?v=cLynybVOi2I

Another GRRM interview:

"One of the reasons I wanted to do this with HBO is that I wanted to keep the sex," he admitted. "We had some real problems because Dany is only 13 in the books, and that's based on medieval history. They didn't have this concept of adolescence or the teenage years. You were a child or you were an adult. And the onset of sexual maturity meant you were an adult. So I reflected that in the books."

But that's a problem for a TV show.

"So we ended up with a 22-year-old portraying an 18-year-old, instead of an 18-year-old portraying a 13-year-old," George said. "If we decided to lose the sex we could have kept the original ages. And once you change the age of one character you have to change the ages of all the characters, and change the date of the war [that dethroned the Mad King]."

"The fact we made all these changes indicates how important we thought sex was."


http://www.okmagazin...mes-thrones-hbo

And another GRRM interview, also recent:

The other big decision we had to make to keep all that material was the ages of the characters. In the books, Dany is 13 years old when all of this begins. And I was drawing… although my books are fantasy, not historical fiction in the strict sense, they occur in an imaginary world and imaginary kingdoms, they're very heavily based on real history. And of course, I've done a ton of research about real medieval history. And basically in the middle ages, they did not have our concept of adolescence, of this sort of these sort of teenage years in between where we're kind of adults, but not adults, and we have different ages, where we're allowed to vote at this age, and we're allowed to go to war and die at a different age, and we're allowed to drink at another age, and have sex at a different age, depending on which state we're in, all of that stuff.

They had child and adult. And the difference between them was the onset of sexual maturity.

And we still have in our cultures, remnants of this older structure in our ceremonies, the Jewish bar mitzvah, the Catholic confirmation ceremony, which I went through at 13, reaffirming as an adult the vows made for me by my godparents at baptism. The Catholics once considered 13 adulthood… These things are just remnants now, but they weren't remnants in the middle ages, and they're not in the books. They had a very different way of looking at things. So I was using that based on historical precedent.

But there was no way that was going to fly in our present environment. If we had cast a 13 year old Dany, there could have been no sexual stuff whatsoever with her. And even if we had cast a 17 year old actress playing a 13 year old, there are some really stringent laws in the UK, you can't do that, even if you have an actress who is past the age of consent playing someone who is under the age of consent, you cannot have a sexual situation... So we have a 22 year old actress playing a 17 year old Dany, instead of a 17 year old actress playing a 13 year old Dany, and we did that deliberately so we could include this material. So I think that speaks to the fact that we did think it was necessary to the story we wanted to tell...


http://www.youtube.c...h?v=QTTW8M_etko

I added the transcript...

Edited by Le Cygne, 09 February 2013 - 04:53 PM.


#247 Feather Crystal

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:31 PM

This video is great satire: http://m.youtube.com/#

#248 Woman of War

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:41 AM

Sandor is an immensely interesting character BUT......

I am a woman who enjoys her sexuality and I feel not the least little bit attracted to the character Sandor, neither book nor HBO Sandor. EEEWW! About as erotic as chopped wood, stale cheese and dirty laundry in my bed!
Sorry, that's my spontaneous female reaction /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#249 Feather Crystal

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:22 AM

It's romance, Westeros style, and I wouldn't have it any other way. He protected her, and she trusted him. He wanted to kiss her, and she imagined he did. He broke down because of the wildfire, and she understood. He felt terrible that he left her, and she wished he was there. He couldn't stop talking about her, and she couldn't stop thinking about him. There's something there in the books, and there's something there in the show.

I wasn't real thrilled with season 2 and yet I loved the show SanSan scenes. They were even better the second time. The actors are wonderful. Favorites are 1x08 The Pointy End (another GRRM episode) and 2x06 The Old Gods and The New and 2x09 Blackwater was a great Sandor episode all around. I wish there were more but I like all of them. The bedroom scene was odd (I guess it was just chance he was sent there then), but I'll take it.

Why didn't Sandor leave his cloak? Why didn't Cersei order the killing of the bastards? Why did she slap Joffrey? Why did Jaime kill his cousin? Why didn't he call Brienne "Wench" (at least Sandor called Sansa "Little Bird")? Why was Brienne a bloodthirsty killer? Why didn't Catelyn make Jaime swear an oath? Why didn't Ghost help Jon beat Qhorin? Why did Ygritte run away instead of Jon let her go? Why didn't Arya kill the guard? Why did she have such an easy time in Harrenhal? Why did Jaqen kill the Tickler? Why did they cut good Jaqen scenes? Why was Dany's storyline changed beyond recognition? Why did Joffrey torture the prostitute? Why didn't the men of Westeros take off their clothes, too? Why were Shae and Tywin so nice? Why was Littlefinger everywhere? Why was Ros everywhere (or even there at all)? Why didn't Renly eat a peach? Why did Brienne kill the Rainbow Guards instead of Loras? Why Talisa instead of Jeyne? Why take away Robb's honorable reason for breaking his promise?

I wish I knew. The point is, they made a lot of changes.

And here's an interview with GRRM on Geek and Sundry, after this episode aired:



http://www.youtube.c...h?v=cLynybVOi2I


You can take GRRM's words either way. You choose to interpret that he's saying they will have a relationship, and I think he means he's suggested an attraction, mainly on Sandor's end, but that doesn't mean that it will develop into anything further.

I am completely disgusted and nauseated by Sandor. Sure, I pity his upbringing, but what you do with the rest of your life is a choice. You can choose to remain a victim and victimize others, or you can choose to change and be better than the people around you. It seems the Sandor character has finally made a good choice staying on the island. I don't expect to read very much about him again. The Sansa character has other more important development in future.

#250 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:55 PM

I think ASOIAF is very realistic.


Really! Ned, cutting the heads to the deserters is realistic?. /eek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':eek:' /> ..Well, it seems that my standards of what is realistic are very differents from yours.

I actually think GRRM is making a political and religious statement.


Is very possible, but in that case don´t you believe that
GRRM could be telling us :
People can redeem (and redeem itself), choose with freedom and to be happy whatever their choice?As on these specific characters GRRM shows us-as the books shows: Sansa thinks about him, she dreams with him, she desires be with him, she don´t cares about his past.She regretted not having gone with him, she fantasizes about his kisses, she dreams that he is up to her bridal bed, she keeps his cloak- that we know does not exist, and we know that in Westeros is the symbol of marriage- under her clothes-(and as we know that this cloak does not exist -then-what we're seeing is her desire for him.)

"Despite all this explosive mix that we have inside, that we are:
Love, hate, kindness,even cruelty, we can be better and make that a better world will be possible"


Yes, I think he is making a Statement about be human.

Edited by Little Red Riding Hood, 22 November 2012 - 04:29 PM.


#251 Feather Crystal

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:29 PM

Really! Ned, cutting the heads to the deserters is realistic?. /eek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':eek:' /> ..Well, it seems that my standards of what is realistic are very differents from yours.



Is very possible, but in that case don´t you believe that
GRRM could be telling us :
People can redeem (and redeem itself), choose with freedom and to be happy whatever their choice?As on these specific characters GRRM shows us-as the books shows: Sansa thinks about him, she dreams with him, she desires be with him, she don´t cares about his past.She regretted not having gone with him, she fantasizes about his kisses, she dreams that he is up to her bridal bed, she keeps his cloak- that we know does not exist, and we know that in Westeros is the symbol of marriage- under her clothes-(and as we know that this cloak does not exist -then-what we're seeing is her desire for him.)

"Despite all this explosive mix that we have inside, that we are:
Love, hate, kindness,even cruelty, we can be better and make that a better world will be possible"


Yes, I think he is making a Statement about be human.


All I can say is, see my previous post, 242. Nothing more to add.

#252 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:30 PM

What you say is different from what I wrote.(and replied in post 244 and 250):
But as you has quoted entirely and has confirmed my post 250 , I'll consider this fact as an acceptance of my Sandor. /lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

Edited by Little Red Riding Hood, 23 November 2012 - 03:00 PM.


#253 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:38 PM

And of course of that Sansan is not dead and buried even by the Gravedigger of Quiet Isle. Neither for us.....
/love.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':love:' />... /wub.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wub:' />...

Edited by Little Red Riding Hood, 23 November 2012 - 03:02 PM.


#254 Feather Crystal

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:08 PM

I just feel sorry for you. If you don't understand or recognize how wrong and sick the "Beauty and the Beast" style storyline is, you could be doomed to being victimized yourself in the future by a controlling and abusive male.

#255 Woman of War

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:34 AM

I just feel sorry for you. If you don't understand or recognize how wrong and sick the "Beauty and the Beast" style storyline is, you could be doomed to being victimized yourself in the future by a controlling and abusive male.


I've worked in a kind of social worker job with women who left their abusive husbands. And there were women who did not let me sleep at night: those who believed they could redeem their violent and controlling men by love and patience, by staying with them, by waiting until their love had turned them into better men. In short: those women who put their own safety behind the wish to keep and reform their man. And they even felt a twisted pride for being " the one and only", the chosen one, who could reach this man - until they ended in the emergency ward or even in the morgue (the latter did not happen fortunately while I was in the job, the first did)

It is not a woman's mission to save a violent guy, there is nothing romantic in it, this doesn't enhance her value, she has a life of her own. She should see to saving herself.

Now we are in a fictional world here and we are allowed to play and to smoothe our nightly dreams with deliciously twisted fanfiction scenarios that would be awful and dangerous in RL. This is what fiction is for. But it would be highly dangerous to transfer those dreams to our personal history.

#256 ShowOverBooks

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:00 AM

What exactly, is the difference between Hound/Sansa and Drogo/Dany? The fact that The Hound is ugly?

#257 ShowOverBooks

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:09 AM

Nobody likes violence, and its bizarre of you to say that a person would have to enjoy violence to enjoy the books. It might be helpful for you to imagine what it might be like for a 25 year old woman who is attracted to a 14 year old boy. How would that make you feel? What would you think of a female, old enough to have graduated from college and to see her pursue a 14 year old 8th grader. Does that gross you out? It does me.

Our society has made it seem acceptable for older men to pursue younger women, and our advertising is full of it. It makes me sad and mad every time I see a young girl being sexualized.

And men who chase younger women are desperate to find a reason to claim that what is a culturally constructed choice is really an unavoidable biological reality. The difficult-to-deny reality is, that younger women lack the experience and wisdom to call their older lovers on their bullshit. One of the main reasons older men lust for underage women is the desire to control them. In addition, men desire to have their egos stoked by believing that they are still attractive to younger women.

There’s nothing innocent or harmless or healthy about older men pursuing substantially younger women. The cost is high to everyone involved. While a few young women may say they are attracted to much older guys, it's often because they falsely imagine themselves to be “so much more mature” than “other girls” their age.

Lynn Phillips, a psychology professor at New York University, did a famous study of young women (mostly under legal age) who were in relationships with significantly older men. Most of the girls she interviewed described these affairs as mutual, exciting, and fulfilling. They pushed back against the suggestion that they were being exploited, claiming in many cases to have initiated or at least welcomed the sex with older men. Phillips then interviewed a similar number of older women. Each of these was over 30, and each had been in a relationship with a much older man while still in her teens. With the benefit of hindsight and experience, these older women acknowledged that they’d been used and hurt and exploited. They admitted that their claims of maturity and sexual adventurousness were all a pretense.

When adult men sexualize teen girls, even just by ogling them, the girls are re-enforced with the idea that their worth in the world is dependent on how sexy they are. Girls who choose men so far out of their age ranges tend toward low self-esteem and depression. These aren’t sweet coming-of-age stories. They are pornographic story lines that young girls are eager for sexual initiation at the hands of an older, wiser mentor.

"Nobody likes violence"

Well, that is a baffling claim. Given the popularity of hunting, combat sports, and action/horror movies.

It is not just our society which has made older man/younger woman 'acceptable'. It is also nature. The nature which drove and evolved our behaviour during the hundreds of thousands of years before 'civilization' brought about by agriculture.

A boy in his late teens is not the physical equal of a man in his late 20s/early 30s. He would not be as skilled and capable a hunter. A girl in her late teens/early 20s is in her prime reproductive capacity.

After we became civilized, it became possible for a man to gain wealth as he got older - making him a better provider. A wealthy man in his 50s still has good breeding potential. A woman in her 50s has no such potential.

Edited by ShowOverBooks, 24 November 2012 - 08:33 AM.


#258 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:13 PM

"Look at me" /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

I repeat again /agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' /> :

I am not in favor of violence.

I am not in favor of a kind of relations that could be between older man (or older woman, that case occurs too, at least in my society) and youngers.
I'm in favor of the emotional connection between humans, in favor of redemption , of choose with freedom.
In favor of be better and happier.

No matter your condition, color, age, intelligence, social class or appearance.

Me canso! /cool4.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cool4:' />...Ná......! /wub.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wub:' /> /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

Edited by Little Red Riding Hood, 26 November 2012 - 12:08 PM.


#259 Feather Crystal

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:41 PM

@ShowOverBooks, we're not animals, we are, hopefully, enlightened intelligent beings who understand the harm of older men preying upon young, naive girls. We also live in a society were women should be able to be financially independent. There are plenty of older wealthy women who could support a much younger man, but it wouldn't make either scenario healthy or morally right.

Regarding Daenerys and Drogo...I never commented on them previously, but I don't approve of their age difference either. And there aren't as many fans for their storyline, which I find curious. I can't help but wonder if it isn't because Dany's is a much stronger, confident character?

#260 Feather Crystal

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:44 PM

As for the "breeding" argument, I don't buy it. Men are more interested in the sex part with no strings attached. Today's older males would be more likely to want any fetuses aborted.