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[Book Spoilers] Is SanSan Dead and Buried?


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#261 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:50 PM

That is your opinion, not absolute reality.

What has that to do with Sandor / Sansa?

#262 Feather Crystal

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:00 AM

I was replying to ShowOverBooks. They were assuming I approved of Daenerys and Drogo.

#263 ShowOverBooks

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:46 AM

I was replying to ShowOverBooks. They were assuming I approved of Daenerys and Drogo.


Ah, but I was not replying to you specifically in that post.

#264 ShowOverBooks

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:28 AM

As for the "breeding" argument, I don't buy it. Men are more interested in the sex part with no strings attached. Today's older males would be more likely to want any fetuses aborted.


Men want sex. We are fine with having children (most of us want to have children - it's instinctive to reproduce). It's responsibility we don't want.

Look at all the rich powerful men in history who had harems and hundreds, even thousands of children. If we have none, we want them more as we age. It's our genetic legacy.

#265 jons nissa

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:20 AM

SPOILERS!

Sandor, if he ever leaves the Quiet Isle, will be Sansa's protector, he will die for her and if she is by then old enough to recognize his emotions she might be aware that he loved her in his weird way - at the moment before she sees him dying.




except that sansa seems to also harbor feelings for sandor as we come to realize during her time in the vale.



You can take GRRM's words either way. You choose to interpret that he's saying they will have a relationship, and I think he means he's suggested an attraction, mainly on Sandor's end, but that doesn't mean that it will develop into anything further.



yes, most sansan fans take this quote as support that the two will marry and have lovely puppies and live happily ever after. but I agree, there is clearly a bond between the two that is FULL of sexual tension but that their interactions with each other were not meant to be seen as a courtship for the two.


What exactly, is the difference between Hound/Sansa and Drogo/Dany? The fact that The Hound is ugly?



i think objections to the hound have nothing to do with the fact that he is ugly. probably more to do with his violent tendencies, excess with drinking and jaded view of mankind. telling sansa that her father enjoyed killing was no kindness and unsupported. still, he does have sansa’s well being at heart and does what he can to help her. that’s just not enough to base a “love story” on, imo.


Our society has made it seem acceptable for older men to pursue younger women, and our advertising is full of it. It makes me sad and mad every time I see a young girl being sexualized.



while i agree with woman of war and feather crystal that sexualizing women, especially young women, is a serious problem in our world, i don’t think grrm is trying to do away with that. his story is set in a world where young girls marry older men. period. end of story. he doesn’t seem to be focusing on illustrating the problems with that. he’s created too many situations where that is what happens and everyone deals with it. he’s said over and over that dany and drogo are a love story. sansa, on the other hand was only in love with fairytales. her problems with tyrion were not based on their age difference, her interest in willas existed despite the age difference and she has imagined sexual situations with sandor despite their age difference. grrm is focusing on other things here, not the age of the two people involved being appropriate or not.

Edited by jons nissa, 25 November 2012 - 11:20 AM.


#266 ShowOverBooks

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:14 PM

i think objections to the hound have nothing to do with the fact that he is ugly. probably more to do with his violent tendencies, excess with drinking and jaded view of mankind. telling sansa that her father enjoyed killing was no kindness and unsupported. still, he does have sansa’s well being at heart and does what he can to help her. that’s just not enough to base a “love story” on, imo.


Ah, I seem to have forgotten what a gentle, kind, and positive fellow Drogo was. I guess rape is less objectionable than criticizing a girl's father.

Edited by ShowOverBooks, 25 November 2012 - 12:15 PM.


#267 jons nissa

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:51 PM

Ah, I seem to have forgotten what a gentle, kind, and positive fellow Drogo was. I guess rape is less objectionable than criticizing a girl's father.


so many things to address.

first off, from your name, i take it you prefer the show to the books. as we know, the show can be very different from the books at times. case and point, dany and drogo's wedding night on the show portrayed dubious consent, if that. in the books, there is no question of rape that night.

also, drogo IS very gentle, kind and positive with regard to dany as much as is possible for a dothraki lord. you may want to bring up their early sex life here and yes, he doesn't seem very concerned about dany's distress. i agree, this was a dark period for dany but she manages to make things more advantageous for herself and comes to love her husband completely. drogo also shows his love for her. you may have a different interpretation but the author meant for this relationship to be seen as a positive one and shows how dany grows in strength and respect. if he succeeded to show that is debatable. but this thread is not about dany and drogo so let's not get too side tracked.

the example of the hound talking about her father was to support the claim that he had a dark view of mankind. ned is one of the noblest characters in westeros but in the hound's eyes, he's just another killer. that's not the end of the world but not what one would choose for sansa who loves chivalry and songs. ultimately, i am glad sansa had a friendship with sandor because he really meant to open her eyes to the world and help her prepare herself for what was to come. however, the fact that his outlook on the world was so dismal could mean he might not be the best one for that job. the fact that sansa is terrified at the start of each of their encounters also doesn't bode well.

again, this is to answer your question about why people object to sandor more than drogo. nothing more. btw, i prefer the books but love the show.

#268 ShowOverBooks

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:43 PM

so many things to address.

first off, from your name, i take it you prefer the show to the books. as we know, the show can be very different from the books at times. case and point, dany and drogo's wedding night on the show portrayed dubious consent, if that. in the books, there is no question of rape that night.

Well, this is a TV show thread.

also, drogo IS very gentle, kind and positive with regard to dany as much as is possible for a dothraki lord.

Remarkable rationalization.

The Hound protected Sansa more than once. She didn't have to seduce him to get him to treat her as a human being, rather than property. Unlike the other Kingsguards.

Drogo treated Dany far worse than The Hound treated Sansa. I guess you can't expect a Targaryan to behave rationally. A bit surprised to see the attitude here, though.

A handsome chieftain is more 'romantic' than an ugly guard, apparently.

#269 jons nissa

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:34 PM

A handsome chieftain is more 'romantic' than an ugly guard, apparently.


you seem extremely fixated on looks. interesting.

i prefer dialogue and actions. intent is also very important for me. anyway, time will tell if sansan is indeed going to ride off into the sunset. he may very well be her sun and stars and she the moon of his life. we'll see.

#270 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:09 PM

she has imagined sexual situations with sandor despite their age difference. grrm is focusing on other things here, not the age of the two people involved being appropriate or not.


I agree with you.
That is precisely my point

I do not like that in many countries exist a tendency to sexualize women (luckily this does not happen in my country).

And precisely another reason of
why like me so the relationship of Sandor and Sansa, Is because although paradoxically exist

clearly a bond between the two that is FULL of sexual tension


it emerges as a logic reaction to the feelings they have for one another.

In the books exist another couples with differents ages:Walder Frey and his wife of 16 years old,

Craster y sus hijas= Littlefinger.


George writes with disgust about this. Not as "something pleasant". If not , he not had writing characters like Brienne or Pia or many others. So do not think that's their goal: "sexualize women". He shows his disgust about it when he write characters that certainly treats Sansa like a object to be used (as Joffrey, Littlefinger or Marillion)


Not Sandor, (Despite their abrupts reactions that GRRM tells us he is leaving behind "burying them" in Quiet Isle.).who seems genuinely in love with her.

Edited by Little Red Riding Hood, 26 November 2012 - 01:17 PM.


#271 jons nissa

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:59 PM

I agree with you. That is precisely my point

And precisely another reason of
why like me so the relationship of Sandor and Sansa, Is because although paradoxically exist

it emerges as a logic reaction to the feelings they have for one another.


Not Sandor, (Despite their abrupts reactions that GRRM tells us he is leaving behind "burying them" in Quiet Isle.).who seems genuinely in love with her.


please don't misunderstand me. while i acknowledge that young girls are often expected to marry older men in westeros, i do not like the idea of sansan. i think they are important to each other but should remain platonic, regardless of the fact that there is sexual tension between them. after all, there was tons of sexual tension between lolita and humbard too.

i think sansa is not in a position to make a decision regarding sandor in an objective manner. she's been too tramautized during her time in king's landing and having her now dreaming of the "knight" that saved her from harm in a sexual manner is so full of problems, i don't know where to begin.

Edited by jons nissa, 26 November 2012 - 03:00 PM.


#272 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:25 PM

Hi, girl! ( :.
don´t misunderstand me either. What I'm saying is that I agree with you on some points.

I don´t see very platonic their relationship-for the way that Sansa express her contact with Sandor.

Sansa thinks about him, she dreams with him, she desires be with him, she don´t cares about his past. She regretted not having gone with him, she fantasizes about his kisses, she dreams that he is up to her bridal bed, she keeps his cloak- that we know does not exist, and we know that in Westeros is the symbol of marriage- under her clothes-(and as we know that this cloak does not exist -then-what we're seeing is her desire for him.)
It does not sound confusing to me, Rather look like attraction, simply.

And indeed, Yes, Sansa has lived traumatic events-her brothers too, but ... then why she feels particularly attracted to Sandor and no for other guy?, Sandor don´t looks like her "Knight of shining armor",
She could think in this way with another guy, and she didn´t.

Moreover, the relationship of "Humbert Humbert" with Lolita is very different from the interaction of Sandor and Sansa, their characters too.

Lolita didn´t feel anything by Humbert Humbert (not to mention , that Lolita does not attracts him by herself ) and she was cheating him all the time. He recognizes it.
He blackmails her. Humbert uses Lolita, and he don´t matter what she really wants.

In the relationships of Sandor and Sansa, sincerity is a factor very important.

Sandor is attracted by who she is, not for her age.

He never forces her to do something that she don´t wants to do, despite that the desire that he feels for her is palpably strong, and although he had that opportunity-of rape her or at least compel to give her consent;
he stops and he leaves her with regret, Do you really imagines to Humbert doing something like that? I don´t think so.

Even, Sandor acknowledges, for example, that although she looks almost like a woman, she isn´t a woman yet ( serpentine scene) and although he is under the influence of alcohol, he controls his desire and he don´t harms her.

Sandor respects the decisions of Sansa, and

Always offers everything but not imposes anything to Sansa.

He cares of her, like a fierce mastiff perhaps,

He protects her , even, from himself.

Edited by Little Red Riding Hood, 27 November 2012 - 09:26 AM.


#273 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:29 PM

"Lolita" is written from the point of view of the character of Humbert, he is not an impartial narrator ... of course.... then .. what we read is not sexual something between them. Not is the "reality" writing for a omniscient and impartial narrator. No. We read the point of view of Humbert.. and a point not very sincere because-as he recognizes with irony- he writes for a " jury "(us, the readers) that judges him.

In ASOIAF, the chapters are written in the third person, BUT ,are written from the point of view of the character, in this case Sansa, so when we read "He touches her almost gently" we're not reading the point of view of GRRM, much less the point of view of Sandor.

We are reading the point of view of Sansa. We are reading what she feels when he touches her.

Edited by Little Red Riding Hood, 27 November 2012 - 09:33 AM.


#274 jons nissa

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

And indeed, Sansa has lived traumatic events-his brothers too, but ... then why she feels particularly attracted to Sandor and no for other guy?, Sandor don´t looks like her "Knight of shining armor",
She could think in this way with another guy, and she didn´t.


no he doesn't look like a knight be he behaves like one and i believe she is responding to that. he protects her from harm a great deal, fights in tournaments and even stands up to joffrey for her. he even has a pet name for her. i believe she reminds him of the good he has in him. and no, she couldn't think this with any other guy because other than tyrion, no one else comes to her rescue. he is very much her knight and her only knight at the moment so no, she couldn't tink of another guy this way.

He cares of her, like a fierce mastiff perhaps, but with care after all.


absolutely. i want him to be lady's substitute and defend sansa with his dying breath. but that's all i want from him for sansa.

Moreover, the relationship of "Humbert Humbert" with Lolita is very different from the interaction of Sandor and Sansa, their characters too.


this was probably not the best example, especially given the age issue at the core of the lolita relationship. i brought it up because it was the first one i could think of where a young girl becomes aware of her sexuality at the same time that an older man is around to pay attention to her. i realize that humbert is an unreliable narrator but he is the only narrator and we have to take his word (loosely) if we are to follow the story. he mentions several instances where lolita approaches him (NOT seduces him) giving him the belief that she was capable of understanding how her actions would be interpreted and that she wanted him. i don't believe that to be the case at all but i do believe lolita was curious about her effect on him. and this was all humbert needed to exploit her.

this is how i see sansa and sandor, to some extent. again, it's not an exact comparison but sansa's sexuality was awakening at the same time that sandor begins to become aware of his feelings for her and begins to treat her gently. i don't believe he will exploit her but he held all the power in their relationship while they were in king's landing and she spent a great deal of time being terrified of him. but she notices and responds to his strength and begins to give him the attributes of a knight very quickly when she talks about him. look at when she thinks of him while she's in the eyrie: when she is in danger or afraid, for the most part.

anyway, that's my interpretation of their relationship: friends with a sexual undercurrent that shouldn't be acted on. at least not until 8 or 10 years pass and she has had a chance to experience other men's attentions and affections. they were very important to one another while in king's landing and then left. time to move on. my opinion. that's all. your opinion is different and that's ok.

Edited by jons nissa, 26 November 2012 - 07:59 PM.


#275 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

The power of Sandor over Sansa, emanates from his personality, not of a "real power" over her destiny.
Because, she could had spoken with Joffrey about what Sandor was doing with her and she didn´t.
Dontos has more "real power" over her than anyone else because he offers her release her. However, by whom she is attracted is by Sandor.


By the way, I could not forget to tell you that is a real pleasure talking to you because you respect the criteria of others and support your opinions with arguments.
Not to mention that you has read one of my idols: Nabokov
.
/happy.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='^_^' />

Edited by Little Red Riding Hood, 27 November 2012 - 04:29 PM.


#276 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:21 PM

Furthermore, Sansa does not remember Sandor only when in situations of danger when she wants protection.
Also , she recalls him in another different and varied situations.
A good overview of all of them appear in her aunt's wedding at The Eyres.
Her aunt is in the marriage bed, "Singing".
and then Sansa:
"Sansa went down the steps and out into the night. A light rain was falling on the Remains of the feast, but the air smelled fresh and clean."

While she is in the closed room and she goes out, she is thinking about the lie that was her own matrimony.
Outside, where "the air smelled fresh and clean" (and sincere) she starts thinking in Sandor:
"A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once.
She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here, and every one better than you.
She Wondered what had Become of Sandor Clegane
."

There, in the rain, despite the rain, she stays thinking about him.

"She stayed outside for a long time."

That is, it, although rain-nothing less than Sansa, who does not like ruining your clothes or your hairstyle-she stays "for a long time" where "the air smelled fresh and clean" thinking in Sandor.

Is not that something significant?

Edited by Little Red Riding Hood, 27 November 2012 - 04:33 PM.


#277 Mother of Kittens

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:42 PM

i'm just wondering, what would sansa thinks, or feels once she learns the hound is dead? she doesn't know the latest Hound news yet, right?

Edited by Queen of Winterfell, 27 November 2012 - 07:48 PM.


#278 Little Red Riding Hood

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:02 PM

Ah! but Sandor is alive.

His uncertain fate only it is known by Brienne (who seems unlikely she finds to Sansa.)

The most knowledgeable about Sandor is The Elder Brother.
But, how could he tell her about it?
Only if they have a encounter.
(More improbable even)


#279 Raksha the Demon

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:44 AM

The fans of Sansa and Sandor have been disappointed about how little air time the relationship between Sansa Stark and Sandor Clegane has received, going back to season 1. Tonight, in an episode written by GRRM himself, a scene that fans of the couple have loved, was gutted. The fleeing Sandor waited for Sansa to return to her room, and among other things, demanded a song from Sansa. Sansa sings for him and afterwards, in the next books, starts remembering things that didn't happen, infamously, the remembered kiss. None of this appeared tonight.

Does this mean the end of SanSan?



I don't think the short-changed SanSan bit in Blackwater means that the relationship is over. It might just mean that GRRM could only fit so much into a very intense episode, and might have thought (or been told) that TV-Sansa is not as popular as Tyrion or Bronn, with or without Sandor.

The SanSan relationship in the book is compelling, riveting drama. The TV series left out what was most important, in my opinion; that Sansa touched the Hound, touched his face and touched his heart; and he was a man who had been known much pain and was filled with anger, and it meant a lot to him. He had sexual and emotional feelings for her; but did not act on his sexual desire (thankfully). He also watched out for her and gave her some valuable advice at a time when she was not only absolutely alone but in danger. Sansa came to rely on Sandor as perhaps the only honest man in King's Landing; and someone she knew cared about her; and that was worth a lot to her. And he'd saved her from rape and possibly worse (as the TV series did show). Post-Blackwater Sansa was starting to focus on Sandor in a romantic way; and he seems to figure in her burgeoning sexuality.

Do I think that Sandor is going to be Sansa's knight in a blood-spattered white cloak, and will come to her rescue and carry her off to Clegane Keep or post-Bolton Winterfell or Pentos? Heck, no. At least probably not. Sandor is an alcoholic emotional mess; and until and unless he learns to control his personal demons, he's not fit to be any woman's mate, much less a girl who, when we saw her last in AFFC, was not yet 14. In some ways, Sandor was younger than Sansa; his personal emotional development seems to have been permanently stopped in adolescence, while Sansa's development is hurtling forward by leaps and bounds; in ASOS she is emotionally scarred and more mature than Margaery's giggling cousins (some of whom are a bit older).

Sandor and Sansa have had a tortured, powerful relationship that meant a lot to both of them. It is not a relationship we would want to see between a girl aged 11-12 and an angry, violent soldier in his 20's in our time, but in GRRM's world, the relationship did have ultimately positive results for both of them. Whether, if they meet again (and I think they will), a hopefully older mid-to-late-teens Sansa can love a hopefully more mature and controlled Sandor and he be able to treat her well, remains to be seen - he may not find a more experienced girl/young woman as appealing as the little innocent girl he knew in King's Landing; and she may not find a more subdued, gentled Sandor as attractive as the passionate and powerful warrior she knew. Knowing GRRM, they'll meet again shortly before one or the other is killed.

Edited by Raksha the Demon, 02 December 2012 - 03:45 AM.


#280 Woman of War

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:54 AM

I agree with you Raksha - who would have thought!

If or when Sansa and Sandor might meet again Sansa might be shrewd and cunning in a darker way Littlefinger- or Cersei-like. This would not appeal to Sandor anymore, they might even end on opposite sides of the game. I do not believe that Sandor will return to mindlessly serving the ruthless power side again so if Sansa should end there....
Or Sansa might become an independent young woman who knows what she wants and then she would not be the little bird anymore that touched Sandor's heart. But he might still fight for her and save her life.
But I think that Sansa will simply outgrow Sandor like a warm beloved children's coat, like a surrogate parent where you learn to keep a distanced yet caring relationship when you mature.

Edited by Woman of War, 02 December 2012 - 11:05 AM.