[Book spoilers] Sansa

[Kittykatknits]

aaaaah but maybe he left because he felt he was not good enough for her...........

he doubted himself

yeah, and since that's pretty much one of the reasons why he left in the books, i want to give him a hug :crying: can you imagine him deathbed confession, full of self-loathing and tears?! rory, you better give us some manly tears then cause you didn't cry this past sunday... though he also cries during the dondarrion fight/trial, so more rory scenes where he is scared of fire ( :crying: again)

I read some really good meta yesterday that talked about why she did not go with him. It really changed my mind about this scene. I can't do it justice now, but essentially it came down to the fact that she isn't ready yet to leave. The doll was a rather obvious symbol here but it pointed out that she was still a child so it is to soon for her to embrace or even understand what leaving with him would mean. So, she doesn't go.

He "refuses" Tywin with regards to Shae by sneaking behind his back. Hardly a refusal. Likewise he does not refuse Tywin with regards to Sansa. However, since he never beds Sansa, how much advantage is he taking of this "pretty wife." Zero.

Well, considering that marrying her gives him the entire North with the knowledge that she would either have to remain a hostage her entire life or be killed off, I'd say he took advantage of her quite a bit.

[Harrad]

Well, considering that marrying her gives him the entire North with the knowledge that she would either have to remain a hostage her entire life or be killed off, I'd say he took advantage of her quite a bit.

Wrong. He doesn't get a bit of "the entire North." That's a pipe dream of Tywin. And you see where his dreams ended. On the shitter. Furthermore, anyone marrying Sansa would get her inheritance if he could hold it and her. That is hardly taking advantage of her. That is part of the world they live in.

[Caro99]

I read some really good meta yesterday that talked about why she did not go with him. It really changed my mind about this scene. I can't do it justice now, but essentially it came down to the fact that she isn't ready yet to leave. The doll was a rather obvious symbol here but it pointed out that she was still a child so it is to soon for her to embrace or even understand what leaving with him would mean. So, she doesn't go.

yeah, the doll was certainly a symbolism to sansa's childhood. when i first watched the scene and thought that she was going to go with him, i though that having them showing sansa sort of dropping her doll was her ready to leave the sansa from AGoT behind, but even now that i've watched it many times i still see them having her holding on to the doll the whole time as a sort of parallel to her not ready to leave her childhood behind just yet (and in the books she still has another one till she starts to become a woman).. thy have the doll between her and sandor, so once girlhood is behind maybe nothing can come between them. and maybe the doll was also there to remind sandor she is as he said himself once, "almost a woman," but she is not quite there yet.

[Dragon of Valyria]

As BlueQueen pointed out this is a case of using the same words twice but having the opposite meaning in the two cases. Sansa begins talking cordially with Tyrion, the person who has helped protect her from Joffrey, and sincerely wishes him protection in battle. At that moment Joffrey walks in and she switches to her rote response to also wish Joffrey well, but this has the opposite meaning directed at that sadist. Her best personal outcome for the battle would be Joffrey killed, Tyrion surviving, and Stannis defeated.

Both are plausible, I think. She did genuinely seem thankful and surprised when Tyrion intervened on her behalf (that was a very touching scene, when she looked at him extending his hand to her) but then she immediately put herself back on guard right afterwards. I think she's unsure if she can trust a Lannister and is probably wondering why he saved her (she's also not privy to the fact that Tyrion wanted the Kingsguard to seek her out during the riots).

That said, she's also fundamentally kind-hearted. She did seem to be better disposed towards Tyrion than she was towards Joffrey, and her tone did shift between referring to the two of them. I think it's clear that Tyrion took it badly, though.

Wrong. He doesn't get a bit of "the entire North." That's a pipe dream of Tywin. And you see where his dreams ended. On the shitter. Furthermore, anyone marrying Sansa would get her inheritance if he could hold it and her. That is hardly taking advantage of her. That is part of the world they live in.

It's not. There's usual mutual advantage, and a consent element too--there is no advantage to the Starks, and nobody consented to it: with the male Starks presumed dead and no guardian appointed, Sansa should hold that right. She was forced into a marriage against her will in order to steal her birthright. That is fundamentally unjust even in a society as backwards as the Sunset Kingdoms.

[Harrad]

That is fundamentally unjust even in a society as backwards as the Sunset Kingdoms.

The point is that Tyrion did not seek this marriage and only consented to it after much misgivings because he was forced to by his family and he also knew Sansa's other options were even worse. He did not even demand his husbandly rights, another facet of that, and other "modern", societies. His marrying Sansa was the best plausible thing that could happen to her under the circumstances. Later, when the circumstances changed, she was able to escape.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

He chose to marry her because he thought "oooh......I get the pretty girl AND a nice inheritance!!!" Then, when reality struck that this pretty girl hated him......he backed off and regretted it.

No one forced him to wed her. They couldve married her off to Lancel at the time....who, btw, hasn't consummated his marriage yet, either.

His other option was Lollys......but it was a bitter pill to realize the pretty girl viewed HIM as the male version Lollys

[Kittykatknits]

The point is that Tyrion did not seek this marriage and only consented to it after much misgivings because he was forced to by his family and he also knew Sansa's other options were even worse. He did not even demand his husbandly rights, another facet of that, and other "modern", societies. His marrying Sansa was the best plausible thing that could happen to her under the circumstances. Later, when the circumstances changed, she was able to escape.

He wasn't forced to do it at all. His father and uncle played him, saying exactly what they knew would most tempt Tyrion. Jaime refused just fine. And Tyrion's reaction during this scene doesn't reflect any misgivings. He had a "queer feeling" in his stomach when he realized that he would be getting "pretty sweet smelling Sansa Stark". Sounds like he was rather excited about getting her inheritance and a young, beautiful girl. No force there at all.

Of course, we know it completely blew up in his face, but he married her for very selfish reasons.

As for not having sex on their wedding night, as a general rule I don't give people gold stars for not raping anyone. He knew it was wrong but did finally back down. But, first he made her strip and then fondled her. It is also very clear that he did plan on consummating their marriage at first. There is also textual evidence that marital rape is considered wrong in Westeros. Cersei told Robert that he would hurt her and he felt guilt about it - showing that even he recognized his behavior was wrong.

This wasn't an arranged marriage which has benefits for both families. This was a forced marriage with no advantage for the bride's family at all, big difference.

Edit: Spelling

[Roboginger]

I'm honestly surprised at the love for Sophie Turner's acting here. Because I think she has been absolutely horrible. Maybe it is the monotony of the emotions Sansa is supposed to convey but I think Sophie Turner has major facial expression problems when acting. And I know that people are going to say she is supposed to have a deadpan delivery of everything because she doesn't really mean anything she is saying but I think she was this way last season too when she had a much larger range of emotions.

With that said she was better in this episode. Her scenes with Cersei probably stole the show away from all the amazing action scenes we saw outside (which were absolutely great too).

I think Sophie has done a pretty good job, i'm the more surprised by everyone saying Lena Headey did a great job and deserves an Emmy

[The Last Reyne]

I think Sophie has done a pretty good job, i'm the more surprised by everyone saying Lena Headey did a great job and deserves an Emmy

That's because Lena Headey did an outstanding job and does deserve an emmy.

[scurvy]

Wrong. He doesn't get a bit of "the entire North." That's a pipe dream of Tywin. And you see where his dreams ended. On the shitter. Furthermore, anyone marrying Sansa would get her inheritance if he could hold it and her. That is hardly taking advantage of her. That is part of the world they live in.

And, considering Bran and Rickon aren't even presumed dead in this version of the story, Sansa is not heir to Robb or the Lady of Winterfell at this point - I think Tyrion's marriage to Sansa is after the Red Wedding. So, marrying her is worthless. Unless they tie it up that hte Bastard of Bolton finds them dead when he attacks Winterfell and reclaims it in his father's name - claiming Theon killed the boys during the siege and Winterfell to torch.

[Wouter]

And, considering Bran and Rickon aren't even presumed dead in this version of the story, Sansa is not heir to Robb or the Lady of Winterfell at this point - I think Tyrion's marriage to Sansa is after the Red Wedding. So, marrying her is worthless.

I don't think Bran and Rickon will be considered alive for long - as you speculate, they will likely have the Bastard report it to the world after he burns Winterfell (of course he will not report the latter fact entirely truthfully; Theon will get the blame, as in the books).

[Kittykatknits]

And, considering Bran and Rickon aren't even presumed dead in this version of the story, Sansa is not heir to Robb or the Lady of Winterfell at this point - I think Tyrion's marriage to Sansa is after the Red Wedding. So, marrying her is worthless. Unless they tie it up that hte Bastard of Bolton finds them dead when he attacks Winterfell and reclaims it in his father's name - claiming Theon killed the boys during the siege and Winterfell to torch.

Nope. They are married before the Red Wedding. Tyrion is told about the RW by Tywin and he is the one to tell Sansa about it. She leaves the room and goes to cry alone in their bedroom. He decides not to go and comfort him because he realizes she would not want that from a Lannister. Smartest decision in their marriage he made.

Also, when Tywin manipulates (not forces!) Tyrion in to marrying Sansa, he broadly hints that something is going to happen with Robb soon with his comments about how some wars are won with words and letters rather than swords. It's pretty clear he is planning something to make Sansa the heir. Tywin also states outright that the plan is to use Bolton to "fix" the North and then get rid of him to plant Tyrion's child in WF too.

My guess is that the bastard of Bolton will take down WF and inform Roose about the deaths of Bran and Rickon. Roose will then tell Tywin about it when he turns his cloak, setting the stage for the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa and the RW.

[scurvy]

Also, when Tywin manipulates (not forces!) Tyrion in to marrying Sansa, he broadly hints that something is going to happen with Robb soon with his comments about how some wars are won with words and letters rather than swords. It's pretty clear he is planning something to make Sansa the heir.

Thanks for the timeline clarification. But, Sansa is Robb's heir already with Bran and Rickon presumed dead. He plans to make Sansa Lady of Winterfell.

[rezor]

Hmmm. I'm still not a fan of Sophie Turner's acting. She's definitely gotten better but there's something breathless and contrived about her speech patterns that gets on my nerves. Sorry, I know she's becoming a fan favourite now but it does get in the way of my Sansa appreciation. Obviously, Lana Headley is much older and more experienced than her but in terms of acting, they are worlds apart, IMO. Lana made the Cersei/Sansa scenes come alive for me. Sansa was just reacting, but Cersei just purred and owned her way through it all. Now, if only she spoke with a slightly stronger voice then she'd be close to perfect.

[Lyanna Stark]

Thanks for the timeline clarification. But, Sansa is Robb's heir already with Bran and Rickon presumed dead. He plans to make Sansa Lady of Winterfell.

No, that's never going to happen. Sansa as Lady Lannister would remain a hostage to the Lannisters in the south. She would never be permitted to go back north, as if she showed up with Tyrion it would mean some northman would kill him and Sansa would be free to marry one of them instead and produce little Starks that way.

The only surefire way the Lannisters can make sure to put one of theirs in Winterfell is to have Sansa as a broodmare in the south and send hers and Tyrion's son north eventually. There have even been speculations that Tywin meant to have Sansa have an "accident" eventually to make it easier to have her sons placed as Stark heirs in Winterfell due to her not being around any more to cause possible inheritance problems.

Of course, if Robb's will ever comes to light, we may see that Sansa has been disinherited, but that's another story completely.

[Caro99]

No, that's never going to happen. Sansa as Lady Lannister would remain a hostage to the Lannisters in the south. She would never be permitted to go back north, as if she showed up with Tyrion it would mean some northman would kill him and Sansa would be free to marry one of them instead and produce little Starks that way.

The only surefire way the Lannisters can make sure to put one of theirs in Winterfell is to have Sansa as a broodmare in the south and send hers and Tyrion's son north eventually. There have even been speculations that Tywin meant to have Sansa have an "accident" eventually to make it easier to have her sons placed as Stark heirs in Winterfell due to her not being around any more to cause possible inheritance problems.

Of course, if Robb's will ever comes to light, we may see that Sansa has been disinherited, but that's another story completely.

oh gods, you're probably right about tywin intending for sansa to have an accicent after they were done with her. i've never really given a lot of thought to what would've happened to her had joff not died and tyrion hadn't killed tywin and was still close to sansa, i guess cause i just don't like their marriage one bit, but hopefully tyrion would have tried too stop it.

About robb's will: if it is ever revealed i want to see sansa's reaction to it. will she understand why robb did it? i think so, but will she also feel a little betrayed?