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Scif/Fantasy Authors who hate scifi/fantasy and/or their fans.


Grack21

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I haven't read much OSC but "Speaker for the Dead" was excellent and was quite heralded at the time. There are not to many people who are stupid enough to claim dislike for the genre they make a living in.

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I haven't read much OSC but "Speaker for the Dead" was excellent and was quite heralded at the time. There are not to many people who are stupid enough to claim dislike for the genre they make a living in.

On an aside, if you want to talk about people that are just plain obnoxious then there are a plethora of those. All give you my biggest example of pompous prickery and I don't think it inappropriate to name names considering people who are rude should not be placated.

At one con I was in a signing line for Terry Pratchett. I had the LEGENDS anthology with me and trying to make small talk I asked him what his favorite story was in the book, his response " I quite prefer my own". In response I said I much enjoyed his story but if I had to pick a favorite I would have to go with "The Hedge Knight" by GRRM.. In response to this he signed my book but with the comment "The big fish does not care which way the little fish swims". I was really disgusted by this after later looking at the signature and comment, what a smug and self righteous dude, totally defaced my book, he did. That is the sole instance where I would never read a authors work again.

Please tell me you didn't call him a tracer while you were at it.

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Um, it's a post I made on a message board, but I'm happy to debate it if you can clarify your critique.

Or are you talking about the essay on Card's child-[as]-killer glorification?

The Card essay was quite interesting and I thought a very insight view of Ender's Game. Thank you for posting it.

The rest I didn't think really merited response. I just wanted to express my disdain for something that I found awful. But since you would like me to expound I will.

As Valente said, there are very few authors who are so good that you are truly missing out if you don't read them.

Missing out on what? This sort of vague hand waving doesn't mean anything. Books are subjective experiences and there is no objective list of books that matter. I can think of two fantasy series that changed my life; Amber and the Wheel of Time. Those two series changed how I read books, I doubt either of them would show up on a list written by Valente about the books I need to read or I'm missing out.

So, in line with that, there are very few authors whose absence from publishing would be a genuine loss to art. The only living asshole whose works might be argued as being "essential" that comes to mind is Naipul.

Essential to what and whom exactly? I mean I'm pretty sure that the novel could soldier along just fine without Naipul (has he even wrote any famous books?). I certainly don't see him as being essential to anything.

In SFF, the obvious gotos are Wright and Card, and neither AFAIK have produced anything really worth mentioning save for Ender's Game. Creating the Innocent Killer shows why Ender's Game is more of a magician's trick for the nerd ego that, once exposed, loses its power.

I've read the Golden Age by John Wright. It was awesome. And you seem to be making a big leap to turn that OSC piece into being about nerd ego. As the author points out the reason the book is popular is due to the near universal feeling of being victimized in some way or form among all students. There's really nothing nerd specific about it.

And why are we not talking about Terry Goodkind and Dan Simmons?

Really, if both never produced anything again in the history of the world, would we really be at a loss?

Maybe. Depends on what they write doesn't it?

But is this really the bar that's being set? Because that's absurdly high. Basically this entire post of yours is this weird devaluation of art. That only some undefined measure of impact actually makes a piece valuable and anything that doesn't measure up to this hazy line is valueless and the world would be better off without it. Frankly, I find that to be bullshit.

Here's my simple take on the matter. I don't really care what an author thinks of fandom. M. John Harrison can be as dismissive of the "clomping foot of nerdism" as he wants to be. It really doesn't effect my desire to read him one way or another. If the description of your book and the positive feedback from folks who have read it catches my eye I will read it. Even if your lying your ass off to try and increase sales (yeah, Patrick Rothfuss, I'm looking at you). If the author is a horrible human being I will probably read the book anyways. I have a library system and I know how to use it, I virtually never buy a book. If for some reason the library didn't have the book and I really, really wanted to read it, I would buy it. I don't care if a horrible human being makes a buck or two off me. In general, I read to be entertained. My primary factor in weighing whether or not to read a book is whether or not I think it will entertain me. It hurts me more to deny myself pleasure then it hurts the author.

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I can think of two fantasy series that changed my life; Amber and the Wheel of Time. Those two series changed how I read books, I doubt either of them would show up on a list written by Valente about the books I need to read or I'm missing out.

That has nothing to do with what I was saying. The point is that you can skip out on authors, even Naipul who won the Nobel Prize in Literature, and not lose anything as a person. There are simply too many other good books.

has he even wrote any famous books?

See above.

I've read the Golden Age by John Wright. It was awesome.

Good for you. But that doesn't make it something necessary in that everyone should read it. I've never seen it listed anywhere, one person in my entire life recommended it to me.

There's really nothing nerd specific about it.

If you say so, it's not a point I'm really wedded to. The point is Card's one good book is a creepy justification for excessive violence.

But is this really the bar that's being set? Because that's absurdly high. Basically this entire post of yours is this weird devaluation of art. That only some undefined measure of impact actually makes a piece valuable and anything that doesn't measure up to this hazy line is valueless and the world would be better off without it. Frankly, I find that to be bullshit.

I'm not setting the bar high at all. Really, I suspect no piece of art is necessary, but going on the idea that there are essential works the number of them is likely exceedingly small. So medicore authors like Card and blowhards like Wright who want to express their opinions should realize that, and the excuse, "you should appreciate the artist is for their level of craft", is well, hard to concern oneself with when people can point out authors to read in place of Naipul.

If he's not essential, who else among the assholes can consider themselves to be? I will never read any Wright or any more Card for the duration of my life. I don't consider myself missing out on anything.

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I hate fantasy. Which is why I write serious literature. Fools might mistake my mighty works for genre, but that is to entirely miss the subtle investigation of deep human themes that lurks beneath the veneer of magic swords, mysterious wizards, and fart gags.

I love my fans, in as far as it is possible for one man to love a countless multitude, for they are, by definition, admirers of quality mainstream fiction with a fine taste for elevated prose poetry. I hate fans of fantasy however, for they smell and are lame, as everyone knows. And their message boards suck ass.

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I love my fans, in as far as it is possible for one man to love a countless multitude, for they are, by definition, admirers of quality mainstream fiction with a fine taste for elevated prose poetry. I hate fans of fantasy however, for they smell and are lame, as everyone knows. And their message boards suck ass.

I'm so confused right now.....

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I guess the question would be something like, if Hitler wrote a really great epic fantasy, would you buy it? (Sadly I think most people would).

Have you ever heard of a little book called Mein Kampf? Lots and lots of people have bought that one over the years.

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Essential to what and whom exactly? I mean I'm pretty sure that the novel could soldier along just fine without Naipul (has he even wrote any famous books?). I certainly don't see him as being essential to anything.

For real? No really, are you serious? You're on the internet, so assume you have the ability to google.

The thing with OSC to me, is putting aside the quality of his books discussion, there's no way in hell I will give that guy even a penny more of my money. I don't care how great his shit may/may not be, the man is evil.

You can find a copy of Ender's Game at every used bookstore on the planet.

I'm gonna let you all in on a secret: writers, by definition, are assholes. Every single one of them. If you stop reading books by assholes, you'll have nothing left to read.

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Have you ever heard of a little book called Mein Kampf? Lots and lots of people have bought that one over the years.

This is a good point you make with Mein Kampf. There are some books that might show us something important about humanity even if the author is a bag o' pus.

All to say I'll have to make sure I get my Lovecraft used.

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I haven't read much OSC but "Speaker for the Dead" was excellent and was quite heralded at the time. There are not to many people who are stupid enough to claim dislike for the genre they make a living in.

On an aside, if you want to talk about people that are just plain obnoxious then there are a plethora of those. All give you my biggest example of pompous prickery and I don't think it inappropriate to name names considering people who are rude should not be placated.

At one con I was in a signing line for Terry Pratchett. I had the LEGENDS anthology with me and trying to make small talk I asked him what his favorite story was in the book, his response " I quite prefer my own". In response I said I much enjoyed his story but if I had to pick a favorite I would have to go with "The Hedge Knight" by GRRM.. In response to this he signed my book but with the comment "The big fish does not care which way the little fish swims". I was really disgusted by this after later looking at the signature and comment, what a smug and self righteous dude, totally defaced my book, he did. That is the sole instance where I would never read a authors work again.

So let me get this right. You walk up to an author, even as established author, and ask him his favorite story. So he just responds that he enjoys his own. So far, not egotistical so far as i am concerned. Comfortable with his own writing, lacking humility, but certainly not Joe Abercrombie levels of asshole.

But then you...well...blithely continue on by stating that someone else's story in the book is better than his, while you are getting HIS autograph. And then you take umbrage? I mean fuck man, what did you expect? I have no actual idea if he's a douche, but you basically spit on him. He expects you to want to talk about his work, not some other dudes.

No offense, but that was fairly clueless.

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Please, keep on supporting Card, If you hate gays that much, that's your problem.

That's unfair, and absolutely uncalled-for. OSC is a piece of shit, and at one point he was a brilliant writer. The two are not mutually exclusive. H.P. Lovecraft was also a piece of shit, and again a brilliant writer. It is possible for those of us who are rational human beings to enjoy a novel while not agreeing with the author's personal opinions on other matters. I happen to think VS Naipaul is one of the greatest writers alive, but that doesn't automatically mean that I hate women. And if you think it does then fuck you.

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That's unfair, and absolutely uncalled-for. OSC is a piece of shit, and at one point he was a brilliant writer. The two are not mutually exclusive. H.P. Lovecraft was also a piece of shit, and again a brilliant writer. It is possible for those of us who are rational human beings to enjoy a novel while not agreeing with the author's personal opinions on other matters. I happen to think VS Naipaul is one of the greatest writers alive, but that doesn't automatically mean that I hate women. And if you think it does then fuck you.

I apologize for that. Honestly, I'm wasn't sure anyone was actually READING my posts. I mention Hitler writing epic fantasy and people bring up mein kampf?, so, hey, I have little faith in people's reading comprehension.

But yes, that was uncalled for.

I don;t know anything about VS Naipaul, because I'm an unlettered barbarian racist rapist homophobe, or something, but does his/her work actually contain a lot of obviously hate towards women and present it in a positive way? That's where I feel OSC is differnt. If you don't think his anti-gay bluushit has become quite apparent in his work in the last decade or so, well, envy you your ignorance. Hamlet's Father. End of Argument. Q.E.D.

I'm taking a break from this board before I smash something.

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This Hitler stuff is definitely over the line.

Does anyone seriously think that reading, or even enjoying, an author's work must necessarily mean that you agree with everything the author believes? If you find Card personally offensive to the point where you can't really read his stuff, fine, that's your call. But it's so strange to me to see people then turn it into a "...and neither should you!!!" guilt trip.

The only possible author with whom I'd ever be 100% in agreement is myself and I'm no Tolkien (Catholic), Martin (Giants fan), etc. I personally can handle Art from people I disagree with and I don't think that makes me a bad or naive person. It just means I like Art.

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That's where I feel OSC is differnt. If you don't think his anti-gay bluushit has become quite apparent in his work in the last decade or so, well, envy you your ignorance. Hamlet's Father. End of Argument. Q.E.D.

Ahh, but now you have changed your argument significantly.

Your original argument ran something like this: we should not buy books written by authors with offensive views.

Your new argument runs something like this: we should not buy books WHICH CONTAIN OFFENSIVE MATERIAL.

Do you see the difference there?

Now, neither argument is a slam dunk -- but at least the second argument addresses the concrete written word being purchased, rather than attacking the person holding the views.

So, given your new argument -- you now posit that we should not buy OSC's books, because you believe that they contain anti-homosexual propaganda.

Please provide evidence that, for instance, Ender in Exile contains anti-homosexual propaganda.

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Your new argument runs something like this: we should not buy books WHICH CONTAIN OFFENSIVE MATERIAL.

And now we run into the problem of what constitutes "offensive"? I agree that this isn't very clear cut either...do we need to throw out things offensive to others, even if we have a different perspective, or do we only worry about what we personally find offensive?

If the former, how do we decide who gets to be offended? There's always a lot of talk about Card, but there's lots of material out there in scifi/fantasy that is "offensive" to religious people, too...does that get considered or is this a one-sided cleansing?

And if the latter, how can we ever agree on what to toss since everyone's viewpoints and tolerances are all over the place in relation to each other?

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Grack, can you just strike through your posts instead of deleting them? I think it's better form to let people read what you wrote -> you can always disavow or change your opinion in the course of the conversation.

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