176 replies to this topic

[himalyanjon]

"YOU WANT TO KNOW A HORRIBLE TRUTH, I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER WHAT SHE LOOKED LIKE, ALL I KNOW IS SHE WENT AWAY AND SEVEN KINGDOMS COULD NOT FILL THE GAP SHE LEFT BEHIND."

Robert loved her she was engaged. Raeghar was married yet she ran away with him. And such was Roberts beilive that he would not belive she ran way with him he took it for a kidnapping.  Plus she knew the result would be a all out war.

PS isn't robert a tragic character (everything yet nothing).

[Alex Baratheon]

Lyanna's kidnapping wasn't the direct cause of the war.
After Rhaegar took her, Brandon Stark rode to King's Landing and requested that Rhaegar return his sister and challenged him to duel. Aerys arrested him and requested that Rickard Stark be present at his trial as well. And we all know how that turned out. Rickard burned, Brandon strangled.

After that, Aerys asked for Ned and Robert's heads, who were wards of Jon Arryn. He refused, and raised his banners in rebellion.

So, I don't really see the Rebellion as Lyanna's fault. I think it's been brewing for some time. First there was the Defiance of Duskendale, then Tywin's resignation, and all that culminated with Robert's Rebellion. It was the Mad King's tyranny that caused the war, not Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Ser Wun Wun]

I have always wondered why she didn't contact anyone after leaving with Rhaegar.  Why not send her family a raven and tell them what was really going on from the beginning?  Robert would have been pissed with the broken engagement, but could the Starks have really objected to Lyanna being made a Queen (assuming that was Rhaegar's intention)?

Even after Brandon and Lord Rickard were murdered by Aerys, it seems she didn't contact anyone.  A war is raging, over her really, and she doesn't even try to make a peace?  

Assuming it was not a kidnapping, I really can't see any excuse for her apparent silence.

[Castel]

The problem with this thread is the problem highlighted in the two posts above me. We have no idea what happened to Lyanna. People have their own pet theories to be sure, but judging her requires that we subscribe to one of two mutually exclusive theories, either of which would give a completely different answer to your question.

[The Drunkard]

One, we don't know if Lyanna did run away with Rhaegar. She may have been kidnapped.

Two, her running away wasn't what started the war. What Aerys did to Brandon and friends after he demanded his sister back started the war. If Lyanna did run away, she had no idea what Aerys would do.

[sagaz]

Ser Wun Wun, on 30 May 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

I have always wondered why she didn't contact anyone after leaving with Rhaegar.  Why not send her family a raven and tell them what was really going on from the beginning?  Robert would have been pissed with the broken engagement, but could the Starks have really objected to Lyanna being made a Queen (assuming that was Rhaegar's intention)?

Even after Brandon and Lord Rickard were murdered by Aerys, it seems she didn't contact anyone.  A war is raging, over her really, and she doesn't even try to make a peace?  

Assuming it was not a kidnapping, I really can't see any excuse for her apparent silence.

pregnancy? lost maidenhood?

@ OP, that's a scene of Robert talking to Cersei in episode 4 of season 1. It wasn't in the books.

EDIT: it was episode 5 "the wolf and the lion"

Edited by sagaz, 30 May 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[Dragonfish]

Ser Wun Wun, on 30 May 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

I have always wondered why she didn't contact anyone after leaving with Rhaegar.  Why not send her family a raven and tell them what was really going on from the beginning?  

What says she didn't? There is nothing in the books that says she did or did not send a letter to, let's say, Rickard, who of course died before he was able to do anything about it. Or perhaps she sent a letter, but it never reached it's intended recipient due to interference from the maesters (there has to be some reason why Maester Walys' apparent duplicitousness was brought into the story).

Quote

Robert would have been pissed with the broken engagement, but could the Starks have really objected to Lyanna being made a Queen (assuming that was Rhaegar's intention)?

They might have, if their "southron ambitions" involved challenging the Targaryens.

Quote

Even after Brandon and Lord Rickard were murdered by Aerys, it seems she didn't contact anyone.  A war is raging, over her really, and she doesn't even try to make a peace?  

Who could she have contacted? Ned and Robert were in the field for most of the war, and ravens cannot be sent to the field. And even if she did send a letter, Ned and Robert would probably have believed it was written under duress (Robb and Catelyn certainly believed the same about Sansa).

[RedBean]

The problem with judging Lyanna is that she's a character who is basically unknown to us. We don't know what her intentions were in running away with Rhaegar, or even if she *did* run away with Rhaegar. All we know of her are recollections from her brother, Ned and her fiance, Robert. Ned is sweet, but naive, and from the looks of it, didn't know too much about what his sister was planning. Robert's just plain clueless to the fact that she never liked him in the first place. Since neither of them knew Lyanna all that well (even besides Ned being her brother), we as the readers don't know her very well either. So don't go around making accusations against her without having any proof of them being true in the first place.

[The Last Reyne]

I agree we do not know Lyanna that well, but considering the theories that are being put forth on this forum others I see no reason we cannot put forth our own feelings based on those we think the most likely. If one subscribes to the theory that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar (as is quite popular) then her lack of action and communication do seem rather selfish and she has to bear some of the blame for the events that occurred after she and Rhaegar ran away.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

She was a girl, probably in love; I don't think Rhaegar took her with him by force. I think, however, that their selfish actions somehow caused, at least in some way, the Rebellion. Everything would be fine if she would have married Robert. I pity them all.
Robert; being madly in love with a girl who doesn't love him back, starting a Rebellion because of her, but then she dies anyway.
Brandon and Rickard Stark; a brother and a father to a young girl who didn't survive the fact that she was in love. Demanded action, got killed in a gruesome way instead.
Ned Stark; Loses his family, just like that. Finds his sister while she's dying and has to live with the consequences. She never leaves his mind.
Rhaegar and Lyanna; How tragic. No need to explain anything actually. I literally cried when Dany had the vision in the House of the Undying, saying; ''Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.'' I do believe that that was meant for Lyanna.

EVERYTHING IS SO TRAGIC! I really hope that the Dream of Spring is a genuine Dream of Spring. I dread to think of the end, knowing that GRRM doesn't give a shit about what readers are thinking.

[Independent George]

Yes, if Lyanna ran off voluntarily, she does earn partial blame for what ensued. The bulk of the blame, though, still falls on Rhaegar, who (1) was the crown prince, and therefore responsible for the Kingdom in a way that Lyanna was not, and (2) knew his father well enough to understand that going incommunicado and leaving Aerys in charge was a really, really bad idea.

Even if he didn't kidnap/rape Lyanna, the best Rhaegar can be described as is selfish and arrogant.

[Artemis]

We don't know anything about Lyanna except that she was crowned Queen of Love & Beauty by Rheagar at the tourney in Harrenhal, described to be "part-horse" by Lady Dustin, placed at the Tower of Joy in Dorne, asked Ned to promise her something and that Arya's said to look a lot like her. Also, in one of Ned's chapters, Lyanna is said to have mentioned:
"Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."
This was when Ned was trying to tell her that her bethroed, Robert Baratheon, was a good man, despite his whoring ways. She seems to be aware of it.


Anyways, I think Robert was in love with the idea of Lyanna and became even more in love with her when his bethroed was kidnapped by the crown Prince. What we have is purely Robert Baratheon's side of the story. Neither do we have Lyanna's nor Rheagar's.

Personally I thought his entire perspective about Rheagar-Lyanna suggest there's truth in the adage "you want what only you can't have."

Edited by Artemis, 30 May 2012 - 06:05 PM.

[Fire Eater]

Independent George, on 30 May 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Yes, if Lyanna ran off voluntarily, she does earn partial blame for what ensued. The bulk of the blame, though, still falls on Rhaegar, who (1) was the crown prince, and therefore responsible for the Kingdom in a way that Lyanna was not, and (2) knew his father well enough to understand that going incommunicado and leaving Aerys in charge was a really, really bad idea.

Even if he didn't kidnap/rape Lyanna, the best Rhaegar can be described as is selfish and arrogant.

Aerys was the king, and Rhaegar didn't think Aerys would do too much damage while he was on temporary leave. Rhaegar probably tried to keep Lyanna running off with him a secret, and didn't know that the Starks would find out and Brandon would be stupid enough to ride up to the Red Keep shouting out threats to Rhaegar, and the events would lead to Robert's Rebellion.

Rhaegar wasn't being selfish and arrogant in running off with the woman he loved and who loved him back. It is easy for one to judge since everything is easy in hindsight, but not in regards to the present.

Aerys is responsible for Robert's Rebellion as Alex Baratheon pointed out. If you would grant him immunity for being mad, then I would blame Brandon for jumping to the conclusion that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and then shouting for Rhaegar to ome out and die at the Red Keep.

Lyanna may have left a letter, explaining her actions, to Maester Walys but he destroyed it.

Edited by Fire Eater, 30 May 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[ARYa_Nym]

I've said this before but I don't think that a letter would have mattered.

First of all they might not believe it. She could have been coerced. Second of all Rhaegar was already married. Lyanna was underage. & the honor of House Stark was at stake. It doesn't matter if she was willing or not.

[Direwolf Lager]

i don't think we can make too many assumptions about Lyanna Stark until more info is revealed about the "kidnapping" and the Tower of Joy

[Babeldygob]

She may have been selfish, but not heartless. Why else run away with the love of her life?

[The-Bard-of-Dungbriar]

Assuming the idea that she ran away is true:

She ran away from a fat, lazy, wife-beating, drunkard who went on to kill the man she did love.

Yeah, that just sounds terrible of her. What a rotten woman. She should have gone with the wife-beater, because he was... wait, I can't think of one redeeming quality Robert does have other than the fact that Ned likes him, which more speaks to how crappy Ned is, not how good Robert is.

[Noimporta]

Generally speaking, it's better not to attribute to malice what can be easier attributed to stupidity.

[The King in the South]

I think it was more stupidity/young girl foolishness then cruelty. And Robert's story is about as tragic as the microorganisms that die whenever I sneeze.

[Sapphire]

Heartless implies she knew her father and brother would come to a cruel end and she did what she wanted anyway. I don't think that's the case at all.

It's hard to judge Lyanna so harshly when we don't know what measures she took to inform her family of her actions or even what Rickard's response to her disappearance was. Remember it was Brandon, not Lord Stark, who took it upon himself to react to the "kidnapping".