68 replies to this topic

[greygnarl]

Does anybody really believe that Edmure is at fault for denying Tywin's attempt to retake the Westerlands?
He was told to hold Riverrun and never was told to stay in Riverrun.
Robb's directions were very unclear and if he had wanted Tywin to chase him he could've said so.

Edmure actually performed much better than anybody could've expected. He just didn't know about Stannis. For that matter neither did Robb and he probably just got pissed off in hindsight.

BTW I am a big Young Wolf fanboy so I'm not a Stark hater.

[The Drunkard]

Yeah, I think Robb and Brynden's reaction wasn't justified. They told him to hold Riverrun, which he did. Then only after he had messed up their plan did they tell him not to leave Riverrun. Faulty planning.

[Ravenhair]

I used to think Edmure was a huge fuck-up, but after reading about him from other perspectives here and from rereading the books themselves, I felt bad for him in a way.  And he really got screwed on the whole marriage thing.  I reread Catelyn's chapter about it, and he was so pressured into being the one offered up to the Freys that it made him quite sympathetic.  Of course, at least he wasn't killed, so being the one to marry a Frey probably saved him.

[Toccs]

Edmure suffers from everybody always expecting him to fail.  Catelyn constantly thinks how he is nothing compared to their father how he isn't fit to be Lord of Riverrun, despite the fact that he has effectively been doing the job for many years now and the Riverlands were prospering.
If Edmure had done what Robb and Blackfish told him that he should have done and just hold Riverrun, Tywin would have been instantly suspicious at the ease of the crossing and might very well have stopped and laid siege to Riverrun itself.  Robb and Blackfish wanted Edmure to do exactly what he did, they just assumed that he would naturally fail because like everyone else they see him as useless.

The riverlands were only involved in the War at all because Edmure decided to support his sister when she abducted Tyrion.  All he did was attempt to help his family and his people were the ones to suffer for it.  Edmure's treatment is in my opinion a huge blight on the characters of Catelyn, Robb and the Blackfish.

Edited by Toccs, 01 June 2012 - 01:38 AM.

[The Last Reyne]

Hold generally means stay where you are not venture out where fortunes can be reversed, but Robb and Brynden should have been clearer especially to one as obviously inexperienced as Edmure. Edmure's main fault is that he is very eager (perhaps too eager) to prove himself to Robb and his Uncle.

[Monty501]

By stopping Tywin from crossing he was preventing him from being able to besiege Riverrun and thus making it easier to hold the castle, as he was commanded to do by Robb and Brynden.

[Buried Treasure]

The opinion that Edmure was not at fault is pretty common on these boards, but it is not as if Edmure rode out against Tywin with an army Robb had left  at his disposal. Robb's options for conducting the war where limited in large part by the riverlanding being released back to defend their own lands - which happened at Edmure's request (mentioned in ACOK Cat I). That meant all of Robb's planning had to be based on the riverlands having only defensive, not offensive, capabilities. When Edmure called the banners again before the battle of the fords he was changing the entire strategy of the war - which is a pretty major thing to do without informing your allies (that Robb was his king is not as important as the fact he was commanding in the field). Robb's planned ambush of Tywin was a decision at the tactical level that did not require change of strategy so it should not have been necessary to inform his allies, he just had to expect them to continue doing what they were supposed to be doing anyway (i.e. defend their lands against foragers and raiders but retreat to their castles when the whole enemy army rides by).

Edited by Buried Treasure, 01 June 2012 - 02:22 AM.

[K.C.]

Toccs, on 01 June 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

The riverlands were only involved in the War at all because Edmure decided to support his sister when she abducted Tyrion.  All he did was attempt to help his family and his people were the ones to suffer for it.  Edmure's treatment is in my opinion a huge blight on the characters of Catelyn, Robb and the Blackfish.

The Lannisters were sending forces against the Riverlands before there was a formal war, and with the House's words being "Family, Duty, Honor" I don't see even Hoster Tully in his prime pulling a Late Lord Frey while Robb won every battle. In hindsight, of course, the decision had disastrous consequences.

Buried Treasure, on 01 June 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

The opinion that Edmure was not at fault is pretty common on these boards, but it is not as if Edmure rode out against Tywin with an army Robb had left  at his disposal. Robb's options for conducting the war where limited in large part by the riverlanding being released back to defend their own lands - which happened at Edmure's request (mentioned in ACOK Cat I). That meant all of Robb's planning had to be based on the riverlands having only defensive, not offensive, capabilities. When Edmure called the banners again before the battle of the fords he was changing the entire strategy of the war - which is a pretty major thing to do without informing your allies (that Robb was his king is not as important as the fact he was commanding in the field). Robb's planned ambush of Tywin was a decision at the tactical level that did not require change of strategy so it should not have been necessary to inform his allies, he just had to expect them to continue doing what they were supposed to be doing anyway (i.e. defend their lands against foragers and raiders but retreat to their castles when the whole enemy army rides by).

Yes, it's explained that Edmure was being rash and thinking of his own personal glory rather than Robb's grand plans. Yet you can't help feeling at least a little sorry for him with the way they treat him.

[Howling Mad]

Ravenhair, on 31 May 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

I used to think Edmure was a huge fuck-up, but after reading about him from other perspectives here and from rereading the books themselves, I felt bad for him in a way.  And he really got screwed on the whole marriage thing.  I reread Catelyn's chapter about it, and he was so pressured into being the one offered up to the Freys that it made him quite sympathetic.  Of course, at least he wasn't killed, so being the one to marry a Frey probably saved him.

The fact that Edmure survived the RW and is still alive provides him with an opportunity for redemption for whatever wrongs he may have previously committed against Robb.

[Toccs]

Savarin, on 01 June 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

The Lannisters were sending forces against the Riverlands before there was a formal war, and with the House's words being "Family, Duty, Honor" I don't see even Hoster Tully in his prime pulling a Late Lord Frey while Robb won every battle. In hindsight, of course, the decision had disastrous consequences.

The Lannisters only started sending forces to attack the Riverlands after Catelyn abducted Tyrion in the riverlands in the name of her Father,   I don't know what you mean about "pulling a late lord frey while Robb won every battle"  at that point Robb hadn't even called his banners.  Catelyn brought the war to Edmure's doorstep and he still loyally tried to help his family and all Cat ever did was think negatively of him.

Savarin, on 01 June 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

Yes, it's explained that Edmure was being rash and thinking of his own personal glory rather than Robb's grand plans. Yet you can't help feeling at least a little sorry for him with the way they treat him.

Edmure was simply defending Riverrun as instructed.  If there had been no defence at the river crossing then Tywin would have smelled a trap.  Robb and Blackfish didn't want Edmure to just sit in Riverrun, they wanted him to attack Tywin, they just assumed that Edmure would lose.

[danm_999]

Toccs, on 01 June 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

The Lannisters only started sending forces to attack the Riverlands after Catelyn abducted Tyrion in the riverlands in the name of her Father,

She does it in King's Robert's name, and Ned claims it was on his orders, so it's lawful as far as the realm is concerned. Tywin breaking the King's Peace is not however.

[Toccs]

She called on the soldiers present and their loyalties to her as Hoster Tully's daughter.  At the time that Tywin sent Gregor into the riverlands the only word he had of the kidnapping was from the witnesses at the Inn who told him.

And technically Tywin didn't break the King's Peace because he sent the men in without banners.  They were just bandits, small difference I know to the people who's homes got burned, but still.

[Talleyrand]

The Last Reyne, on 01 June 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Hold generally means stay where you are not venture out where fortunes can be reversed, but Robb and Brynden should have been clearer especially to one as obviously inexperienced as Edmure. Edmure's main fault is that he is very eager (perhaps too eager) to prove himself to Robb and his Uncle.

No it doesn't. Hold means keep it on our sides hands. Edmure did that. He either could have done what he did - Meet the numerically superior Tywin at a choke point taking away that advantage or let Tywin pass. Giving him the opportunity to lay siege to Riverrun or further ravage the Riverrlands. Tywin passing or not is regardless in the grand scale anyway. Stannis was buggered either way, Tywin being there just balances the power in KL afterwards and instead of Robb dying at the RW he does it in some battle in the Westerlands

[Little Miss Sunshine]

Lack of proper communication would be the best term to describe the situation. Robb and Brynden could have been more specific about their intentions, but they regard Edmure as useless and prone to fail, so why bother? In addition, Edmure wants to prove himself and probably ends up doing a bit more that what was needed.

Both sides have their share of guilt, although I think Robb and Brynden have it more than Edmure. They're the King and a seasoned commander, (in theory) they should know better.

[danm_999]

Toccs, on 01 June 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

She called on the soldiers present and their loyalties to her as Hoster Tully's daughter.

No, she commented on how they were friends of her father's before she called upon them to seize Tyrion in the name of the King, not Hoster Tully.

Important distinction, she's using the King's authority.

Toccs, on 01 June 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

At the time that Tywin sent Gregor into the riverlands the only word he had of the kidnapping was from the witnesses at the Inn who told him.

Who would have told him it was done in King Robert's name. That's not an unlawful act. Cersei is then told by Ned it's in his authority, so it can't be construed as anything but a legal arrest by the Lannisters. Tywin does not say when Tyrion returns from the Vale he challenges the legality of it, he challenges it based on the fact Tyrion is a Lannister, and nobody fucks with the Lannisters.

Toccs, on 01 June 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

And technically Tywin didn't break the King's Peace because he sent the men in without banners.  They were just bandits, small difference I know to the people who's homes got burned, but still.

Even if you don't consider this breaking the King's Peace, Tywin's tactic here failed. Hoster Tully withdrew and ordered his forces not to retaliate (which Ned compliments him on). Then Tywin invades the Riverlands proper and besieges Riverrun. That certainly breaks the King's Peace.

Edited by danm_999, 01 June 2012 - 03:28 AM.

[Toccs]

danm_999, on 01 June 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

Even if you don't consider this breaking the King's Peace, Tywin's tactic here failed. Hoster Tully withdrew and ordered his forces not to retaliate (which Ned compliments him on). Then Tywin invades the Riverlands proper and besieges Riverrun. That certainly breaks the King's Peace.

Hoster Tully was bedridden and suffering dementia.  Edmure withrew and order his forces not to retaliate, which was my original point.

As for the kidnapping.  It happened in the riverlands, by Hoster Tully's daughter, using Hoster Tully's bannermen, it is perfectly logical to assume that it was done on Tully orders without further information.

Edited by Toccs, 01 June 2012 - 03:34 AM.

[danm_999]

Toccs, on 01 June 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

Hoster Tully was bedridden and suffering dementia.  Edmure withrew and order his forces not to retaliate, which was my original point.

That is wrong.

“The lords of the Trident keep the king’s peace,” Ser Raymun Darry said. “The Lannisters have broken it. We ask leave to answer them, steel for steel. We ask justice for the smallfolk of Sherrer and Wendish Town and the Mummer’s Ford.”
“Edmure agrees, we must pay Gregor Clegane back his bloody coin,” Ser Marq declared, “but old Lord Hoster commanded us to come here and beg the king’s leave before we strike.”

Thank the gods for old Lord Hoster, then.

Toccs, on 01 June 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

As for the kidnapping.  It happened in the riverlands, by Hoster Tully's daughter, using Hoster Tully's bannermen, it is perfectly logical to assume that it was done on Tully orders without further information.

It's not perfectly logical because the only way you could assume that is if you somehow didn't hear the entire sentence where Catelyn invoked the King's Justice.

Except everybody there heard the whole sentence, that it was done in the name of King Robert. Ned confirms that in King's Landing, that's one of the reasons Robert's so pissed with Ned.

Edited by danm_999, 01 June 2012 - 03:41 AM.

[Toccs]

I stand corrected, thank you ser.

[Vympel]

That Edmure isn't at fault is absolutely cut and dried. Long story short - if Robb planned for Tywin to be caught in the Westerlands then he should've damn well said so. It is absolutely as simple as that. It would've been a five minute addendum to whatever the original conversation was.

[Evamitchelle]

I find it especially hypocritical that Robb and Brynden, aka the two guys most famous for not going along with marriage plans, then used this "mistake" against Edmure to make him marry the Frey girl.