68 replies to this topic

[Batman]

It was Robbs fault, I understand keeping your cards close to the chest but Edmure was the heir to Riverunn. By rights he should be one of his kings closest counsellors. Edmure is smart enough to keep the information to himself.

Its like a basketball coach drawing up a bunch of plays and then not telling them to any of the players and yelling at them for losing the game. Asshole tell the man the play so he knows whats going on, how should he know that you have found a good position in the Westerlands to take the war to Tywin.

[Roose Bolton's Pet Leech]

Lady Sansa Stark, on 01 June 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

I was kinda surprised myself by the reaction of Robb Stark, yes.

Robb has a habit of passing the buck. He blames Theon Greyjoy for rescuing Bran from the Wildings, when Theon was doing the only logical thing.

[Buried Treasure]

Batman, on 02 June 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

It was Robbs fault, I understand keeping your cards close to the chest but Edmure was the heir to Riverunn. By rights he should be one of his kings closest counsellors. Edmure is smart enough to keep the information to himself.

Its like a basketball coach drawing up a bunch of plays and then not telling them to any of the players and yelling at them for losing the game. Asshole tell the man the play so he knows whats going on, how should he know that you have found a good position in the Westerlands to take the war to Tywin.

And if Edmure had been in the vicinity of Robb he would have been informed, but at the time he was commander of a garrison many miles away and did not need to be directly involved as that garrison was not large enough for Edmure to take to the field. Informing Edmure wouldn't have been a simple matter, as it would have involved either sending ravens or despatching riders, and so would of necessity mean informing more people than just Edmure.

Robb could have taken the risk, but the tactic of ambushing Tywin was an extension of the original strategy of drawing the war into the west and Edmure should have been able to work out for himself that Tywin fighting in the West would have been more desirable than fighting to keep him in the riverlands. Maybe Robb did not inform Edmure because he thought it not necessary as he believed Edmure could work that out for himself?

And if we are criticising people for not informing others of their plans, then Edmure shares at least equal blame for not informing Robb that he was gathering an army.

Edited by Buried Treasure, 02 June 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[Mulled Wino]

Little Miss Sunshine, on 01 June 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

Lack of proper communication would be the best term to describe the situation. Robb and Brynden could have been more specific about their intentions, but they regard Edmure as useless and prone to fail, so why bother? In addition, Edmure wants to prove himself and probably ends up doing a bit more that what was needed.

Both sides have their share of guilt, although I think Robb and Brynden have it more than Edmure. They're the King and a seasoned commander, (in theory) they should know better.

This right here.

Regardless of your respect level for Edmure, you dont hide that you want Tywin to pass through the Riverlands with the Lord of the Riverlands.  You dont need to share why.

As for Tully, you dont form your own plan without with your superiors.  If you do, you run the risk of mucking things up.

[The Fallen]

The order given to Edmure was to hold Riverrun. Edmure had been humiliated and captured previously (pretty bad when you consider what both his father and uncle did during the War of the Ninepenny Kings). This led him to go beyond what was asked of him and afforded him an opportunity to redeem himself. Unfortunately for him, it had the unintended result of allowing Tywin to go to King's Landing in time to defeat Stannis and also ally themselves with the Tyrells. And we know the rest. As far as Edmure's treatment at the hands of Robb and Brynden, I don't think it was that bad. They didn't dwell on it. We, the readers, are the ones who continue to hold it against Edmure.

By the way, I find it hard to believe that Robb and Brynden's plans included the expectation that Edmure would disregard what he was told, but that it didn't matter because he would fail. Edmure may not be a great field commander, but he's also not a nincompoop.

[Lummel]

There was absolutely nothing Edmure could have done to make Tywin go west.  Riverrun doesn't even block the road west.  It was pure optimism from the first to assume that Tywin might have abandoned his position where he could move back to cover Kings Landing to go west or that he might go west leaving Riverrun untaken in his rear.

Blaming Edmure was all about forcing him to marry a Frey and make up for Robb's oathbreaking.

[Toccs]

It's not like Edmure took his forces way out of Riverrun.  Cat could see some of the fighting from Hoster's balcony that's pretty dam close, if you were told to "hold the castle" and there was an enemy army crossing a river within eyesight of the castle then not throwing them back would be a failure of the orders.

Also I don't think that Tywin ever would have followed Robb west anyway.  Tywin knew full well that King's Landing was under threat and poorly defended and one of his main goals at this point was getting Jaime back.  If Edmure did nothing, Tywin would have resumed the siege of Riverrun until word got to him of Stannis' approach and he would have headed for KL all while Robb and Blackfish twiddled their thumbs in the westlands so pretty much the same end result.

Robb's plan was seriously flawed from the get go and he is very overrated as a tactician.  Winning a few battles in which you have the element of suprise is not the same as planning a long term campaign stratergy.

Edited by Toccs, 03 June 2012 - 01:53 AM.

[Buried Treasure]

Lummel, on 03 June 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

There was absolutely nothing Edmure could have done to make Tywin go west.  Riverrun doesn't even block the road west.  It was pure optimism from the first to assume that Tywin might have abandoned his position where he could move back to cover Kings Landing to go west or that he might go west leaving Riverrun untaken in his rear.

Edmure didn't have to force Tywin to go West - Robb was doing that, all Edmure had to do was let him march unimpeded.

The forces at Riverrun knew where Tywin was headed, when Catelyn is returning to Riverrun she meets various people and Tywin's goal is alluded to several times:

- Martyn Rivers Lord Tywin has left Harrenhal and marched west with all his power. (However, here 'west' is not specified)
- Rivers later described all the damage Robb is inflicting, including the Greatjon seizing a number of gold mines Ser Wender laughed "Nothing's more like to bring a Lannister running than a threat to his gold."
-A discussion between Edmure and Cat: "Lord Tywin is coming-" "He is making for the West, to defend his own lands. If we close out gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety." "This is Tully land," Edmure declared. "If Tywin
Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson."

And the bulk of the Lannisters don't come close to Riverrun's wall, there are dozens of fords on that part of the river. From the watchtower Catelyn could see for miles. Even so, only the nearest ford was visible. The largest fight occurs at Stone Mill, some two days ride away (or at least that is the time lag from the battle ocurring to word reaching Riverrun).

[Toccs]

Tywin would never have put himself in a position where he had Robb's army in front of him and Riverrun behind him whilst King's Landing was beset by Renly and Stannis.  For Robb to think that he would is just folly.

[Buried Treasure]

So you think that if Tywin had gotten west of the river he would have detected and defused the ambush? That's fair enough, you have the opinion that Tywin was a better general than Robb. We will never know however, as the two never faced each other in the field as Edmure decided to battle Tywin. (A battle he knew his forces were not strong enough to win decisively, and his plan relied on trapping Tywin between his forces at Riverrun and Bolton's at Harrenhal and Robb coming back east to finish Tywin off).

Even if Robb's ambush had not come off as he planned it he would still have had the war where he wanted it - in the West - if not for Edmure's choices.

[Toccs]

No I believe that if Tywin had crossed the river he would have laid siege to Riverrun and that's where he would have been when word came to him of Stannis' attack on King's Landing.  The war would never have been in the West, The Lannister host would be camped outside Riverrun for a few days and then they would have left for King's Landing.

[Lord Over]

Toccs, on 01 June 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

Edmure suffers from everybody always expecting him to fail.  Catelyn constantly thinks how he is nothing compared to their father how he isn't fit to be Lord of Riverrun, despite the fact that he has effectively been doing the job for many years now and the Riverlands were prospering.
If Edmure had done what Robb and Blackfish told him that he should have done and just hold Riverrun, Tywin would have been instantly suspicious at the ease of the crossing and might very well have stopped and laid siege to Riverrun itself.  Robb and Blackfish wanted Edmure to do exactly what he did, they just assumed that he would naturally fail because like everyone else they see him as useless.

The riverlands were only involved in the War at all because Edmure decided to support his sister when she abducted Tyrion.  All he did was attempt to help his family and his people were the ones to suffer for it.  Edmure's treatment is in my opinion a huge blight on the characters of Catelyn, Robb and the Blackfish.

My goodness, this a thousand times. I'm currently re-read ASOS and forgotten how much Catelyn gets on my nerves,

Edmure: Morning, Catelyn

Catleyn: *sigh* you're such a failure

Edmure: Would you like to try some honey cake?

Catelyn: ((such a miserable failure of a man))

Seriously, she gets up his butt at the most random times.

[sToNED_CAT]

I'm not sure allowing Tywin to march to West would have chaged the things too much... Tyrrels were probably strong enough to defeat Stannis on their own, especially if they caught him with his pants down like it happened.

[Lummel]

Buried Treasure, on 03 June 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

Edmure didn't have to force Tywin to go West - Robb was doing that, all Edmure had to do was let him march unimpeded.

The forces at Riverrun knew where Tywin was headed, when Catelyn is returning to Riverrun she meets various people and Tywin's goal is alluded to several times...

yes Catelyn meets people who are on her own side who view Tywin's movements with hopes and expectations of the sucess of Robb's strategy.

But why should Tywin go west from his point of view?  The damage has been done.  Robb has stolen cattle, trampled fields and burnt mineheads already.  Tywin arriving won't untrample wheatfields or uneat his cows but it will remove him from being able to march to assist Kings Landing.  While the war will be won by who ever holds Kings Landing not the West.

My guess is that he was manoevering to potentially cut Robb off from the Riverlands and to trap him in the west when he got word of the advance on Kings Landing.   But in anycase it was a desperate hope to try and lure Tywin west.  If Stannis and earlier Renly hadn't been around it would have been a viable strategy, but as it was it would have required Tywin to forget about the importance of Kings Landing.

[Buried Treasure]

Toccs, on 03 June 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

No I believe that if Tywin had crossed the river he would have laid siege to Riverrun and that's where he would have been when word came to him of Stannis' attack on King's Landing.  The war would never have been in the West, The Lannister host would be camped outside Riverrun for a few days and then they would have left for King's Landing.

Okay, your opinion disagrees with that of the characters in the book, but to discuss it on it's own merit.

Sieges take time, and require spreading out forces around the besieged castle. It is already established that besieging Riverrun is particularly difficult as it requires dividing the army into three seperate encampments (around the waterways) that cannot easily support each other. This would divide Tywin's large (and dangerous) army into three smaller armies that are vulnerable to attack from a relieving force. When Riverrun is besieged again in AFFC there are no more armies to act as relieving forces but there are two around when Tywin could have besieged Riverrun.

What would Tywin have gained by taking Riverrun? He would have gotten Jaime back (although he would have put him in greater danger by besieging the castle he was a prisoner in) and he would have defeated the Tullys and a few hundred men. He would not have dealt with the young wolf - who was the greatest threat to him.

Tywin was also short on time. He must have thought he would have had enough time to complete his objectives in marching west or he would never have marched in the first place. He obviously cannot have known that Stannis would attack Kings Landing as soon as he did - so that cannot have factored into Tywin's decision of whether to besiege Riverrun or march to the Westerlands.

What Tywin could have known and his choices
- He moves to Harrenhal when Robb is in the riverlands and Renly in the Stormlands, from there he can pounce on either. Stannis is not yet declared.
- When he takes the decison to march Robb is in the West, the riverlords on their own lands and Renly and Stannis are squaring off to fight each other (all widely available knowledge). The opinion of POV's we do read is that Renly and Stannis will take some time in there war - so we can presume Tywin thought the same and thought he had a window of opportunity to deal with Robb before returning to deal with the victorioius Baratheon.
- When Catelyn is two days from Riverrun Tywin is 3 or 4 days behind, the men she meets have had word of Renly's death so Tywin probably got the news whilst on the march. He continues marching West. He must know his time to deal with Robb is shortened but be thinking that Stannis would have to take Storms End and reorganise before threatening Kings Landing.
- At around the same time he would be getting word from his scouts that the riverlords are planning to block the crossings, he continues west. Besieging a strong castle would take time, which he knows he is short of, and in the little time he did have the bulk of his armies never came within miles of riverrun - indicating he was not interested in the castle.
- He turns around when word of Stannis moving against Kings Landing reaches him. He is no longer short of time but out of it entirely, because Stannis was able to move quicker than anybody expected.

[StannisandDaeny]

Without judging the decisions made, I think it was ultra-lame for Robb and Brynden to blame Edmure for the outcome of the Blackwater while the Tyrells still had 50 000 men to attack Stannis with. Tywin's presence wasn't really required for that to happen.

Now that I've made a little tactical analysis, I think it was actually good what Edmure did. The odds were slim Tywin was going to siege Riverrun, but if he did, it could have forced Robb to come to their relief and kept him from wreaking further havoc on the Westerlands. How was Edmure to know Robb wanted a Lannister army up his ass if he didn't tell him? Instead Edmure bought time for Robb to continue to pillage Tywin's lands, while dealing damage to his forces. It was not a decisive defeat for Tywin, but then I believe it is generally better to take the opportunities to have to fight a fight under advantageous circumstances and whittle the enemy down in such fights than to stake everything on 1 large battle and just assume Tywin was going to fall into Robb's trap on his own lands, lands he should know better than they did, no less.

Edited by StannisandDaeny, 03 June 2012 - 06:08 AM.

[Toccs]

Buried Treasure, on 03 June 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Okay, your opinion disagrees with that of the characters in the book, but to discuss it on it's own merit.

The characters in the book are not infallible.  My opinion of the situation is different from Robb and the Blackfish's yes, but all of it just opinion.

Buried Treasure, on 03 June 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Tywin was also short on time. He must have thought he would have had enough time to complete his objectives in marching west or he would never have marched in the first place. He obviously cannot have known that Stannis would attack Kings Landing as soon as he did - so that cannot have factored into Tywin's decision of whether to besiege Riverrun or march to the Westerlands.

Tywin couldn't have known that Stannis was going to attack when he did, but he certainly knew that Renly and the Tyrells were just days out from King's Landing.
If Tywin's host crossed the river without any sign of defence that would have to raise some red flags.  Tywin moved to Harrenhall at the end of aGoT so that he would not be surrounded by enemies, why would he now choose to go west and place Robb in front of him and the River Lords behind him?
Robb's plan would only work if the war was just between Tywin and Robb but it wasn't.  Robb wasn't fighting Renly and didn't care about King's Landing, but Tywin was fighting Renly and if King's Landing was captured it mean the utter destruction of his house.

I do not believe that Tywin would have charged headlong into a obvious trap while powerful enemies were bearing down on a poorly defended city that is essential to his survival.

[Jaehaerys Sand]

danm_999, on 01 June 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

She does it in King's Robert's name, and Ned claims it was on his orders, so it's lawful as far as the realm is concerned. Tywin breaking the King's Peace is not however.

Catelyn did not have the authority to use Robert to arrest Tyrion. And if she really kidnapped him in the name of the King, she should have brought him to King's Landing, not her half-crazy sister.

As to Edmure, it wasn't really his fault. For one thing, Riverrun wasn't really at risk of being captured. It still had men guarding it, and part of his forces were within view of the castle balcony. Storming it wasn't going to be an option.

For another, Edmure had no idea Stannis was going to march on King's Landing. Riverrun only received word of his victory at Storm's End after Edmure had left, and there is nothing in the text to suggest that he was told.

Robb's plan didn't seem that well thought out to me. He was going to be outnumbered 4 to 1 in his enemies own lands. I don't think his plan would have worked against a general as good as Tywin Lannister.

[StannisandDaeny]

Tywin isn't that good a general. Capable yes, but by no means among the best. He just lacks the victories to ascribe to his conto. Heck even when he won against Roose his plan didn't work.

His reaction to Tyrion being captured was wrong by any standards. Just a cheap excuse for him to start a war. We know him well enough.

I do agree on Edmure.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

Toccs, on 01 June 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

Edmure suffers from everybody always expecting him to fail.  Catelyn constantly thinks how he is nothing compared to their father how he isn't fit to be Lord of Riverrun, despite the fact that he has effectively been doing the job for many years now and the Riverlands were prospering.
If Edmure had done what Robb and Blackfish told him that he should have done and just hold Riverrun, Tywin would have been instantly suspicious at the ease of the crossing and might very well have stopped and laid siege to Riverrun itself.  Robb and Blackfish wanted Edmure to do exactly what he did, they just assumed that he would naturally fail because like everyone else they see him as useless.

The riverlands were only involved in the War at all because Edmure decided to support his sister when she abducted Tyrion.  All he did was attempt to help his family and his people were the ones to suffer for it.  Edmure's treatment is in my opinion a huge blight on the characters of Catelyn, Robb and the Blackfish.

THIS, ladies and dudes.

Though Tywin would have invaded the Riverlands regardless of Edmure.

Justice for the Tullys! Justice for the Riverlands!