72 replies to this topic

[TheNorthernWarrior]

2 other Possibilities:

1) While everyone is out fighting, Roose just walks away from Winterfel and returns to the Dreadfort.

2) Stannis knowing he will struggle to take Winterfel, instead attacks the Dreadfort. But I think this is unlikely as Stannis seems to have gone all in on taking back Winterfel.

Edited by TheNorthernWarrior, 11 June 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[Mummer's Fart]

It's an enormous march through the snow halfway across the North to the Dreadfort. It wouldn't happen, both parties have too much at stake and too little resources.

Edited by Mummer's Fart, 11 June 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[aryagonnakill]

Winterfell is Burning, on 11 June 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

Not necessarily- is possible that Roose was killed by Mance, or in the battle, or that he's alive but seriously injured.

But yes, either way, he's certainly in no position to stop Ramsay.

I like the possibility of Mance having killed Roose, but i still think Ramsey will do it.

[Shaggy Rickon]

aryagonnakill, on 11 June 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

I like the possibility of Mance having killed Roose, but i still think Ramsey will do it.

I like the idea of Ramsay killing roose. I see it like the Dr. Frankestien and his monster type of situation. Roose "created" Ramsay and now the monster has turned on the creator. Poetic justice.

[The Snowman]

Personally I'd like to see Jon Snow take Ramsey and Roose's heads off for what he did or for Stannis or Mance to do it and do the whole "Jon Snow sends his regards". But that would be too cool and it probably won't happen.
Roose essentially is just done for, either Ramsey will kill him cus he's a psycho or the Manderly's will revolt and help destroy all of Roose's plans by helping Stannis take the castle.

[Triskele]

Babeldygob, on 05 June 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

I also believe that the old Kings in the crypts definitely have some kind of significance. We know that there are 100s of passages in the crypts. Perhaps if the Others threaten Winterfell, they come to life by some ancient magic? That'd be an army of 1000 Stark ghosts in Winterfell and I don't think they'll be happy with what they see. This is very crackpottery though.

At some point Qyburn remarks to someone that he thinks ghosts are legit or at least could be, and that all of the Maesters at the Citadel pretty much scoff at this notion but for Marwyn.  This makes me think that it's possible that we see a ghost or two at some point.

[CBroome1979]

I think we can agree that Stannis is very likely the winner of the conflict termed the 'Battle of Ice'. The Theon sample chapter has Stannis learning of the Karstark betrayal, having the Winterfell ravens, and explains his intentions of shaping the ground to favor his forces.  The Freys are on borrowed time, the White Harbor troops will turn cloak, and Ramsey Bolton will be fooled somehow into thinking Stannis has lost.  That being said, Roose Bolton specifically tells Theon "My Lord Manderly plots betrayal". He's not stupid and has obviously thought out the present situation.  Sending out the Freys, Manderlys, and Ramsey cure all his ailments, because he gets rid of the Freys, who the other Northmen hate, the Manderlys, who he thinks are actively plotting against him, and his bastard, whose emotional instability is a liability in the current situation. And he still has more than enough men to defend Winterfell from a force of Stannis' size.  Unless he, too, is fooled by a Karstark raven, and opens the gates to Stannis.

[saillias]

Roose is mysterious and his character is hard to get a read on. He's more subtle and graceful on the surface than his son but I wonder if it makes him capable of more. I don't see Ramsay killing him.

There was that one point in Dance where Theon saw that Roose was actually fearful. When Roose betrayed Robb he had a good plan sure but he never entertained the possibility of having Stannis appear above the wall. I don't think he knows what to do. It's a really high-stakes critical point for him.

[Lord Martin]

The smartest thing Roose can do is take his wife and as many soldiers as he can and book it for the Dreadfort.  Let the new Lord of Winterfell defend it.  Go have some true born sons and hope you can find a way to survive the winter and keep your lands.  If anyone can do it, Roose can.  

I also really hope this happens, because I would love a Roose Bolton Epilogue where he and his entourage get attacked by the Others that have just come over/through the Wall.

[Mummer's Fart]

CBroome1979, on 14 June 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

  Unless he, too, is fooled by a Karstark raven, and opens the gates to Stannis.

Oh I like this possiblity! A Trojan horse scenario. Maybe even Stannis' men disguised as Karstarks infiltrate the castle.

[Nahlim]

Does Ramsey know what Stannis looks like?
Stannis might as well infiltrate Winterfell. Maybe he gives his sword to someone else, hence Ramsey thinks he killed Stannis and sends John that letter.

[anraeful]

A lot of great theories here. Personally I think that while Roose is cunning, that he was bitten off more then he can chew in his bid for control of the north. When he joined the plot to take down the starks Joffrey (and behind him Tywin) held the power and the war seemed all but over once Robb went down... but things played out differently and a 'sure thing' seems a lot more precarious now. I dont think this changes the fact that Roose is a clever s.o.b, but that events took an unexpected turn and as another poster pointed out, without the benefit of being psychic not even the smartest player could have forseen where the players are all at now. (Unless perhaps they're littlefinger or varys maybe )

Now I'm sure he has a few strategies planned out and closing the gates of winterfell would certainly suit him to a T (the possibility hadnt even crossed my mind, thanks to whoever pointed it out). But ultimately I think he is boned. Reminds me of the Targaryen who took Dorne by force and only held in for a year (sorry not such a fan as to know his name off the top of my head.. ) Basically he took the North, but 'his people' hate him - they wont accept him - and eventually they will dispose of him, and he has no outside help from the Red Keep or other allies who either cant get north or just dont care enough with their own pressing problems.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

I think that Roose is screwed either way. Especially if Davos manages to rally some men in Skagos, which has been untouched by war. They should be sworn to the Starks, right? So, if they do indeed have Rickon, they could help with retaking Winterfell or crushing Dreadfort on their way there. Dreadfort is now poorly defended, as far as I understand.

And not to even talk about when Justin Massey returns with the (at least) 20,000 sellswords from Essos.

All Stannis needs to do now is bide his time. But with the Golden Company in the South, I dunno how much time does he have.

[David C. Hunter]

CBroome1979, on 14 June 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

I think we can agree that Stannis is very likely the winner of the conflict termed the 'Battle of Ice'. The Theon sample chapter has Stannis learning of the Karstark betrayal, having the Winterfell ravens, and explains his intentions of shaping the ground to favor his forces.  The Freys are on borrowed time, the White Harbor troops will turn cloak, and Ramsey Bolton will be fooled somehow into thinking Stannis has lost.  That being said, Roose Bolton specifically tells Theon "My Lord Manderly plots betrayal". He's not stupid and has obviously thought out the present situation.  Sending out the Freys, Manderlys, and Ramsey cure all his ailments, because he gets rid of the Freys, who the other Northmen hate, the Manderlys, who he thinks are actively plotting against him, and his bastard, whose emotional instability is a liability in the current situation. And he still has more than enough men to defend Winterfell from a force of Stannis' size.  Unless he, too, is fooled by a Karstark raven, and opens the gates to Stannis.

I agree, but Roose cant forsee everything. So he knows Manderly plots betrayel, but I doubt he forsaw the Frey Pies or that Manderlys have 10,000 men and a hidden fleet. Roose was the one that looked scared when ADWD was ending. Roose is cunning, but any kind of stability he was seeking was all wrapped up in his son's heir and Jeyne Poole, who i now gone. There is no stability now.

Yes, he got rid of his ailments in the Freys, Manderlys, etc. but the Freys made up a better part of his army. Losing half your forces, is losing half your forces. Period. He is making mistakes because alot of things are working against him. He will lose...soon. I say this as a fan of Roose Bolton

[gendarme]

While I think Stannis will prevail in the North, Roose now seems quite well-positioned in one of the strongest castles in the realm - the northern equivalent of Littlefinger's rule in the Vale - not quite stable, not quite legitimate but not facing any real threats so far. That's why it's very interesting to me how exactly Stannis' victory will play out - he may destroy the Freys and ally with the Manderlys, but I too think that Roose never meant to open the gates again after sending them out. He has food, he has shelter and the attacking army lacks those things. Yes, Stannis may send a raven now that he has gotten hold of them, he may offer a sword or a story of his demise through Manderlys or imposters dressed as Karstarks, but I don't really think that at this point Roose will open the gates for anyone and anything before winter destroys all those around Winterfell regardless of their agenda. This leaves either the dead Starks from the crypts revolting or the tunnels maester Luwing talked about in the last episode of the TV show, although that would be rather Deus Ex Machinesque and probably only a plot device for the TV show.

Tharvot, on 11 June 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

So, you can have the Others taking the Wall, dead Freys turning into wights, and Stannis, Jon, Mel, & co retreating south as the undead march south to destroy Winterfell.

As cunning as Roose is, there is no way he is prepared for an undead army marching upon him.

That's an interesting point, but how exactly would it happen? Normally, castles are taken by either siege, or an assault. Let's assume that the Others have somehow successfully bypassed the Wall through some faulty gate or whatever - that may be possible since the Night's Watch is in disarray and without it the Wall means nothing. What will the Others do at Winterfell, though? They are afraid of fire and cannot torch it once again, they don't possess any siege equipment like trebuchets and so on - it is a castle, so they can't charge on giant spiders and dead bears - how will they take it? The only option seems to be to wait outside until the people inside starve - but since it is winter, they essentially have no choice but to stay inside. Roose and the northern lords also seem to have a final ace up their sleeve - seeing how well Winterfell burns, they might torch it once again if push comes to shove with Others bypassing the walls and retreat to the underground crypts. This will certainly repell the attack and anyone lucky enough to survive the fire may have a chance at escaping.

Edited by gendarme, 17 June 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[King Bolton 1990]

I believe that at some point there will be a huge battle at Winterfell with Stannis and Roose/Ramsey. Then Mance will show up proving not only that Ramsey's letter was fake but the fact that he is alive and unharmed to Stannis. Mance will earn a pardon by showing Stannis a secret way in and out of Winterrfell show he can lead a small force in and open the gates for the main force. At that point Ramsey will probably cut Roose's throat and make an escape somehow. As far as Roose goes as a manipulative schemer he is close to tops but he messed up bad at the Red Wedding and in ADWD he shows a new side of himself he is actually scared and he is hanging on a thread held up by Ramsey,The Freys and about a thousand people that would like nothing more than to skin him

[aryagonnakill]

gendarme, on 17 June 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

While I think Stannis will prevail in the North, Roose now seems quite well-positioned in one of the strongest castles in the realm - the northern equivalent of Littlefinger's rule in the Vale - not quite stable, not quite legitimate but not facing any real threats so far. That's why it's very interesting to me how exactly Stannis' victory will play out - he may destroy the Freys and ally with the Manderlys, but I too think that Roose never meant to open the gates again after sending them out. He has food, he has shelter and the attacking army lacks those things. Yes, Stannis may send a raven now that he has gotten hold of them, he may offer a sword or a story of his demise through Manderlys or imposters dressed as Karstarks, but I don't really think that at this point Roose will open the gates for anyone and anything before winter destroys all those around Winterfell regardless of their agenda. This leaves either the dead Starks from the crypts revolting or the tunnels maester Luwing talked about in the last episode of the TV show, although that would be rather Deus Ex Machinesque and probably only a plot device for the TV show.



That's an interesting point, but how exactly would it happen? Normally, castles are taken by either siege, or an assault. Let's assume that the Others have somehow successfully bypassed the Wall through some faulty gate or whatever - that may be possible since the Night's Watch is in disarray and without it the Wall means nothing. What will the Others do at Winterfell, though? They are afraid of fire and cannot torch it once again, they don't possess any siege equipment like trebuchets and so on - it is a castle, so they can't charge on giant spiders and dead bears - how will they take it? The only option seems to be to wait outside until the people inside starve - but since it is winter, they essentially have no choice but to stay inside. Roose and the northern lords also seem to have a final ace up their sleeve - seeing how well Winterfell burns, they might torch it once again if push comes to shove with Others bypassing the walls and retreat to the underground crypts. This will certainly repell the attack and anyone lucky enough to survive the fire may have a chance at escaping.

I think that Winterfell or at least part of it, perhaps the crypts, will be magically sealed against the others because of the weirwood tree and the Bran the builder connection.  But in terms of taking the city, the people in winterfell may have no idea that fire is the key to killing wights, even more probable they will have no idea that you need dragonglass or valyrian steel to kill an other.  But to get in the city, perhaps an undead giant at the gate. and spiders can definitely climb walls.

Edited by aryagonnakill, 18 June 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[oscarinfw]

King Bolton 1990, on 17 June 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

I believe that at some point there will be a huge battle at Winterfell with Stannis and Roose/Ramsey. Then Mance will show up proving not only that Ramsey's letter was fake but the fact that he is alive and unharmed to Stannis. Mance will earn a pardon by showing Stannis a secret way in and out of Winterrfell show he can lead a small force in and open the gates for the main force. At that point Ramsey will probably cut Roose's throat and make an escape somehow. As far as Roose goes as a manipulative schemer he is close to tops but he messed up bad at the Red Wedding and in ADWD he shows a new side of himself he is actually scared and he is hanging on a thread held up by Ramsey,The Freys and about a thousand people that would like nothing more than to skin him

What hints at even the possibility of secret ways in and out of Winterfell ? Even if such existed, how would Mance have learned of it ?

[Mummer's Fart]

oscarinfw, on 18 June 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

What hints at even the possibility of secret ways in and out of Winterfell ? Even if such existed, how would Mance have learned of it ?

Bran, very early in the series talked about secret ways in and out. As I recall he said there was a spot on the wall by the outer wall's south gate that takes you in a tunnel through the wall, crawling and walking, and spits you out inside by the south gate. He thought even Maester Luwin had no idea about it.

As for Mance learning it, well I guess Bran is hooked up to the WeirWoodWeb so maybe...

[BinkyBonks]

Roose is the underdog? Are you guys for real? He has the numerical advantage over Stannis, his men are warm and well-fed and sitting behind castle walls. Stannis' army is frozen, half-starved, and don't have any horses left.

Stannis is massively the underdog in this battle. The only way he can win is through trickery.

Also, I can't see Ramsey killing Roose. Seems too predictable, and Roose will see Ramsey coming a million miles away.

Edited by BinkyBonks, 18 June 2012 - 01:39 PM.