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Oberyn poisoned Tywin


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402 replies to this topic

#1 Anasûrimbor Jön

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 03:18 PM

saw this topic on Reddit today:
http://www.reddit.co...d_viper_poison/

Links to this:
http://boiledleather...ad-man-shitting

Tywin Lannister: Dead Man Shitting?


“Where will I find my lord father?”
“In the solar with Lord Tyrell and Prince Oberyn.”
Mace Tyrell and the Red Viper breaking bread together? Strange and stranger.

—Jaime and Ser Meryn Trant, upon Jaime’s return to King’s Landing


“Widow’s blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons.”

—Grand Maester Pycelle, during Tyrion’s trial


“To be sure, I have much to thank your sister for. If not for her accusation at the feast, it might well be you judging me instead of me judging you.” The prince’s eyes were dark with amusement. “Who knows more of poison than the Red Viper of Dorne, after all?”
[…]
“Your father,” said Prince Oberyn, “may not live forever.”
Something about the way he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck bristle. Suddenly he was mindful of Elia again, and all that Oberyn had said as they crossed the field of ashes. He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword. “It is not wise to speak such treasons in the Red Keep, my prince. The little birds are listening.”
“Let them. Is it treason to say a man is mortal? Valar morghulis was how they said it in Valyria of old. All men must die. And the Doom came and proved it true.”

—Prince Oberyn Martell and Tyrion, in Tyrion’s cell


He found his father where he knew he’d find him, seated in the dimness of the privy tower, bedrobe hiked up around his hips.
[…]
For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosened in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.
Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold.

—from Tyrion’s assassination of Tywin during his escape from the black cells


The King’s Hand was rotting visibly. His face had taken on a greenish tinge, and his eyes were deeply sunken, two black pits. Fissures had opened in his cheeks, and a foul white fluid was seeping through the joints of his splendid gold-and-crimson armor to pool beneath his body.
[…]
Red-eyed and pale, Cersei climbed the steps to kneel above their father, drawing Tommen down beside her. The boy recoiled at the sight, but his mother seized his wrist before he could pull away.“Pray,” she whispered, and Tommen tried. But he was only eight and Lord Tywin was a horror. One desperate breath of air, then the king began to sob.“Stop that!” Cersei said. Tommen turned his head and doubled over, retching. His crown fell off and rolled across the marble floor. His mother pulled back in disgust, and all at once the king was running for the doors, as fast as his eight-year-old legs could carry him.
“Ser Osmund, relieve me,” Jaime said sharply, as Kettleblack turned to chase the crown. He handed the man the golden sword and went after his king. In the Hall of Lamps he caught him, beneath the eyes of two dozen startled septas. “I’m sorry,” Tommen wept. “I will do better on the morrow. Mother says a king must show the way, but the smell made me sick.”
This will not do. Too many eager ears and watching eyes.“Best we go outside, Your Grace.” Jaime led the boy out to where the air was as fresh and clean as King’s Landing ever got. Twoscore gold cloaks had been posted around the plaza to guard the horses and the litters. He took the king off to the side, well away from everyone, and sat him down upon the marble steps. “I wasn’t scared,” the boy insisted. “The smell made me sick. Didn’t it make you sick? How could you bear it, Uncle, ser?”

—Jaime, Cersei, and Tommen, during Tywin’s funeral.
I’m just saying: means, motive, opportunity.


Quoted for your convenience.


I, for one, am utterly convinced.

#2 The Last Direwolf

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 03:20 PM

I, for one, am utterly convinced.


Same here.

#3 Rhaquentis

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 04:19 PM

*Wild applause*
Oh, I love Oberyn. Curse you Mountain! /frown5.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':frown5:' />

#4 revenant6

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 04:19 PM

Seems pretty likely.

I miss Oberyn. What a cool character. If he only had a visor.

#5 Duir

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 04:29 PM

Never even crossed my mind, but I am now a believer.
Although I remember thinking "that's odd" when Tyrion found Tywin in the privy. And "He found his father where he knew he’d find him"?

#6 Winter's Knight

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 04:33 PM

Mind.Blown.

#7 Dolorous Ali

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 04:47 PM

Awesome. Didn't even suspect it. I'm a believer now as well. I was always glad that Tyrion killed Tywin. But, now I'm not. It would've been an awesome scene seeing Tywin exploding because of his own shit!
There's also one more evidence. Pycell said that he had prepared the corpse, but it still stank and Cersei thought how useless Pycell is. That can suggest that there's something wrong with the corpse.

#8 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 04:56 PM

This is suprisingly plausible. Hadn't considered that possibility before. This migt still be wrong, of course. Still, as Winter's Knight wrote, the mind is blown.

#9 Pellaeon

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:06 PM

Very plausible, I like this theory
Smal Question: Is Tyrion still a kinslayer if we consider Tywin already death, if he was poisen he would die anyway

#10 Mumatil

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:09 PM

I am convinced and always wondered the reason for such a "cursed" decay.

Nice attention to detail. Well the part where Tywin and Oberyn breaking bread.

Tyrion is still a kinslayer, Tywin wass very much alive and probrably only starting to succumb the poison's effect hence the area they were at.

Edited by Mumatil, 02 June 2012 - 05:11 PM.


#11 mcb

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:14 PM

Wow, I wouldn't guess the Red Viper was such a prankster.
And Tyrion unwittingly gave him such a perfect cover after the fact. When a man is found with a crossbow bolt in his stomach, the cause of death is kinda obvious, and who would stop to think of poison?
OK, and now let's play devil's advocate here. Do we know how much time elapsed since Tywin's death to his funeral? Maybe his decomposition wasn't that unnaturally quick.

#12 RoamingRonin

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:19 PM

I'm sold on this theory. I assumed Tyrion knew where to find his father because it appeared Tywin and Shae just had sex. Besides, Tywin couldn't be anywhere else at the time

#13 Howling Mad

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:22 PM

Explains a lot of loose ends, especially the rotting corspe. Did Varys conspire with Oberyn? Varys involvement would help explain the proximity/availability of the crossbow and the likelihood of Tyrion finding Tywin indisposed.

#14 Pellaeon

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:26 PM

Tyrion is still a kinslayer, Tywin wass very much alive and probrably only starting to succumb the poison's effect hence the area they were at.

That would also destroy my theory that Oberyn won against Gregor in the trail because his first strike was already deadly

#15 RoamingRonin

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:29 PM

Explains a lot of loose ends, especially the rotting corspe. Did Varys conspire with Oberyn? Varys involvement would help explain the proximity/availability of the crossbow and the likelihood of Tyrion finding Tywin indisposed.


Why would Oberyn conspire with Varys? They both share a common goal of sorts but there's no reason for them to trust each other. Besides, Oberyn seemed to have everything under control working alone.

#16 Lupomostro

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:34 PM

Wow. I came on this thread prepared to go 'huh?!' and dismiss the theory. But you have me convinced. Wow, such a good feeling, to have your eyes opened to another bit of authorial cleverness and plot weaving - thank you, OP!

#17 drigoly

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:38 PM

my brain just exploded by the epicness of this /bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' />

#18 The Fallen

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:04 PM

All the pieces fit. Let's assume that this is true. Does GRRM sit patiently waiting for someone to discover it? And how tough must it be to not be tempted to disclose it yourself? I wonder if he would ever confirm any of these theories when it doesn't affect the future plot of a particular storyline.

Good work by the original poster.

#19 Eucratides_Megas

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:05 PM

Very nice theory. I always thought Tywin seemed rather untouched by Oberyn's fury...it would be quite amusing to the Martells if Tywin Lannister died from his own bowels exploding. He was too full of his own shit, literally /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#20 Lord Ben

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:08 PM

All the pieces fit. Let's assume that this is true. Does GRRM sit patiently waiting for someone to discover it? And how tough must it be to not be tempted to disclose it yourself?


Or the flipside, does he read a theory and go "Wow, that was a complete accident but it makes total sense!" sometimes?