402 replies to this topic

[Horza]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 03 June 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

ETA. Shouldn't the poison have killed him earler though?

This one sounds like it would take a while. It isn't going after vital organs, after all.

Lady Storm, on 03 June 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Good god, this is definitely not the direction I imagined this conversation taking

Welcome to the board!

[Lady Storm]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 03 June 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

ETA. Shouldn't the poison have killed him earler though?

Depends on when he was (would be) poisoned, but not really, some 3 days without excretion is the average for humans.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 03 June 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Poison isn't really the best explanation for the decay though. By the time of the funeral, Tywin had been dead for a week, and they don't exactly have air conditioning in Westeros. I would think natural decay would explain as well as poison.

Still...wow.

ETA. Shouldn't the poison have killed him earler though?

The characters seem to think there is something unnatural about the smell. Doesn't Cersei ask Pycelle why it smells so bad and Pycelle doesn't know?  Pycelle would probably know if it's just the stench of a naturally decaying body. And as for the time the poison takes to kill someone, I don't know of any other instances of this poison being used so I don't think we have any precedent for how long it takes someone to die from it.

[Tewks44]

This is certainly an exciting theory, considering most theories with any textual support have already been discovered.  However, all things considered is the evidence isn't overwhelming.  

Things we KNOW

1. Tywin ate with the Red Viper and Mace Tyrell

2. A poison exists which causes the bowels to stop working so you overflow with feces

3. Tyrion found Tywin taking a poo

4. Tywin's body had the odor of decomposition despite precautions taken to preven this

Also we have some between the lines evidence that while don't constitute a factual event, still provide insight

-The Red Viper desperately wanted to revenge the deaths in his family

-The Red Viper made comments about Tywin's mortality in a way that Tyrion found discomforting

-Tywin's bowels released even though he was sitting on the toilet.  One would think his bowls would already be empty.... if they were working properly

All in all I think this is decent evidence, but none of it is completely damning.  It is entirely possible Tywin, the Red Viper and Mace had a nice feast and then Tyrion killed him right before he started taking a dump as most of us probably assumed.  All things considered, however, this is by far one of the most interesting and best supported theory I've come across in quite some time.

[larrytheimp]

It's an interesting idea but there's not much to go on:  a casual remark by Oberyn to Tyrion, the fact that Oberyn and Tywin ate together, and that's about it.  I don't buy comment about knowing he'd find Tywin in the privy to indicate that Tyrion realizes that Tywin's been poisoned and glued to the john.  Like many of you said, it's the middle of the night, there's a naked chick in his bed but he's not there- of course he's in the privy.

I especially don't buy that Varys knew Tywin had been poisoned but sent Tyrion up to take the blame - he was just convicted of poisoning Joffrey - if Varys doesn't send Tyrion up there and Tywin dies of poison, everyone could have easily blamed Tyrion anyway - especially if he escaped.

So what does Varys gain by having Tywin shot in the stomach as opposed to dying from poison?  Not much since he could easily blame it on Tyrion regardless.  

@Lady Storm I like your Dunk shield.  You're not too tall for me.

Edited by larrytheimp, 03 June 2012 - 06:37 PM.

[Mark Antony]

i'm not convinced tbh.

[Maxpey]

Toccs, on 03 June 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

Why does it ever have to be revealed?  It doesn't change anything, Tyrion was still the one to kill Tywin and Tywin is still just as dead.  Not every secret plot has to come to light.

Maybe it will be revealed that it was Doran Martell's idea all along.
Remember the relationship the brothers had.  Doran called himself "the grass" that  Oberyn, the Red Viper, could hide in without being discovered by their enemies.

Maybe Doran was the true viper hidden in the grass.

[Adelstein]

I always thought it was odd that Tywin had been in the privy for so long, considering that he hadn't got round to evacuating his bowels when Tyrion shot him. Tyrion has time to enter the room, have a brief conversation with Shae, strangle her, select a weapon, and load the crossbow, and Tywin is still sitting with his drawers around his ankles when Tyrion reaches him. I assumed that this was an authorial goof and Tywin was just taking an unusually long time to defecate on this occasion for narrative convenience.

Moreover, Tyrion isn't exactly in a hurry when he's doing all this stuff. He seems aware that Tywin won't be back any time soon.

The idea that he might have been given a poison (by someone with more than sufficient motive, opportunity and resources to do so) which constipates him as a side effect fills that missing link rather nicely, I think.

The line "he found him where he knew he would find him" also makes more sense in that context. If Tyrion was just guessing or assuming Tywin was in the privy, I think a different construction would have been used.

Edited by Adelstein, 04 June 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Victarions Secret]

Pellaeon, on 02 June 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

Very plausible, I like this theory Smal Question: Is Tyrion still a kinslayer if we consider Tywin already death, if he was poisen he would die anyway

Nope! Because Tywin Isn't Tyrions father. It is known (well at least speculated).

[Bushido]

This is just... ridiculous.

[Pellaeon]

Victarions Secret, on 04 June 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

Nope! Because Tywin Isn't Tyrions father. It is known (well at least speculated).

He is his only son, this is known!

[Cheese Pudding]

For now on I consider it a fact. Kudos.

[Dragonfish]

Adelstein, on 04 June 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

The line "he found him where he knew he would find him" also makes more sense in that context. If Tyrion was just guessing or assuming Tywin was in the privy, I think a different construction would have been used.

Except that it doesn't make more sense in that context. How exactly does Tyrion know what poison Oberyn used?

[Lordtoofat2sitAthrone]

Pellaeon, on 04 June 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

He is his only son, this is known!

I find buying into what Pellaeon is saying is much easier for me than Tyrion being a secret Targ.  Firstly because of the "liberties" Aerys took with the Joanna on the wedding night, and secondly, and this is nothing more than a feeling with no textual evidence to back it up - I like the idea that Tyrion, being the foul creature that he is, is the only true spawn of Tywinn.  But that's a different topic.


I really like this theory.  It answers a few unusual details about Tywinn's death, at the same time making Oberyn even more badass.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Dragonfish, on 04 June 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Except that it doesn't make more sense in that context. How exactly does Tyrion know what poison Oberyn used?

Pycelle mentions a bunch of poisons that were taken from his chambers at the trial, one of which is widows blood. I guess if Tyrion assumed Oberyn poisoned Tywin before he died and he knew the effects of all the other poisons( which possibly would have killed Tywin quickly or left him bedridden), through process of elimination, he would come to widows blood. Maybe.

[ghost the direwolf]

I like it ,I want Oberyn to have taken his revenge on Tywin.

[Independent George]

Wow. Now THAT is how you propose a theory. I've gotten so used to wacky conspiracy theories that I was absolutely shocked at how well-conceived this one is.

I'm still not convinced that it happened, but it's definitely plausible, and completely consistent with the characters. Bravo.

[ishmael]

Lady Storm, on 03 June 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

And after checking the chapter, now I have a problem with anyone using Widow's blood
Quote: "It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons".

That basically means that your body isn't doing the proper businesses of removing your toxins, so there is no excretion. That means Tywin couldn't be on the toilet in the first place.

That does not mean that a person who is constipated, either by diet or poison, does not feel the need or urge to go to the toilet.  It just means they have a very difficult time being productive while there.  We are told he is there, not that he was getiting anything out, until after he is shot.

There are a lot of possibilities with this situation.  Varys did not release Tyrion of his own accord.  He was persuaded by Jaime to let Tyrion out.  Maybe he was maybe he wasn't going to, but Jaime came along nad helped him out.  He could have wanted Tyrion to die or be captured in the confrontation with Tywin, but Oberyn may have handicapped Tywin.  It could just be coincidence that so many favorable circumstances came together to enable Tyrion to kill Tywin.  However, from the condition of the body and the descriptions given, it appears that Tywin was poisoned by someone.  The two most likely candidates are Varys and Oberyn, but I agree with the poster above who questioned how Varys could have known that Jaime and Tyrion would have the conversation about Tysha.  Maybe he had another plan to trigger Tyrion's anger (Shae being there or something else), but a much better motivator presented itself and he went with it.

[ElizaMartell]

drigoly, on 02 June 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

my brain just exploded by the epicness of this

You must be easily impressed.

[Grip]

I like the theory, even though I am not wholly convinced. It is still alot more reasonable than many other theories out there, crackpot or not..