402 replies to this topic

[Lyanna Stark]

Ah nice, really nice. It also adds another "stuff that Cersei got really really wrong" in AFFC, since she just assumes Pycelle is useless and stupid about cleaning up the corpse, but if poison has been used, it can explain the extreme stench.

[KAralinda]

THE shit***** YOU DIG!!!!!!!!

I AM A BELIEVER!!!!

[PlainJane]

I'm a believer. Great catch!

[Stormcloak]

I like this theory, especially since it gives Oberyn one last piece of revenge.
The thing is though, why would Shae be in Tywin's chambers if he was sick from the poison?

[Adelstein]

Well, Tywin has an enormous amount of time and respect for himself. He believes himself to be the only competent member of his family, has bullied and dominated everyone his entire adult life, including three kings, and has no particular time for religion or any of that foolishness. He's not going to let something minor like constipation (probably in the early stages thereof) get in the way of banging his least favourite son's lover. I mean, who does this illness think it is, anyway? Doesn't it realise this is Tywin Lannister? I'm sure this is just a misunderstanding.

[jlk7e]

Toccs, on 03 June 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

Why does it ever have to be revealed?  It doesn't change anything, Tyrion was still the one to kill Tywin and Tywin is still just as dead.  Not every secret plot has to come to light.

If it's never revealed, then it's not true.  There's no point in inserting secret plots into a story that are so obscure and oblique that nobody even thinks of them until 12 years after a book comes out and then not even revealing it.

[Ragnorak]

Does the timeline fit?  I can't remember how much time passed between Oberyn's meal and Tywin's death.  Well thought out theory and certainly plausible.

[The Lady Nym]

I'm lovin' it.

[danm_999]

jlk7e, on 05 June 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

If it's never revealed, then it's not true.  There's no point in inserting secret plots into a story that are so obscure and oblique that nobody even thinks of them until 12 years after a book comes out and then not even revealing it.

It's literature, not everything has to have a "point".

[Lord Martin]

I like this a lot.

Oddly enough, bowel movements are discussed fairly commonly in ASOIAF.

IIRC, Jaime reads some entries in the White Book about an LC whose entries always began "Lord so and so awoke at dawn and moved his bowels."  The point of the entry, to me, was to show that this LC was a man of habit and discipline.  He was a man who paid attention to what went into his body and took good care of his body.  

I am not looking to hijack the thread into a discussion of medieval period bowel movements, but I think it goes without saying that those who eat well (lots of Fiber) and avoid eating foods that are too rich are more likely to have regular bowel movements.

For instance, Wyman Manderly infamously takes 30 minute "breaks" during his feasts.  This is how he is able to sneak away and meet with Davos.  Similarly, Roose Bolton has some lines about eating prunes.  Since he isn't bitching about not being able to poo, I assume Roose is pretty regular.  Roose is clearly into health and Manderly is not.  

So what kind of man is Tywin?  Tywin is a hard man, smart man... reminds me of Bolton is many ways (or maybe Bolton reminds me of Tywin).  So I would expect Tywin to be a good pooper.  Clearly he was backed up a little bit when he got killed.  

I don't really have a point I guess other than just pointing out how often GRRM mentions bowel movements.

[sillent]

I cant believe I didn't pick up on this.. most of the evidence was right there and it makes a lot of sense, really surprised we're figuring it out all these years later.

Would be nice to get some confirmation on this- might be a Q martin would actually answer. (No, dont ask him who his fav character is: its Tyrion).

Would also explain the stench and (maybe?) the rotting? I'm starting a re-read of all the books will look into it more when I get to ASOS/AFFC

[victim]

This is exceptional. I already loved the Red Viper but I think he just sneaked into my top 5.

[Brewmaster]

I like the theory, however...

I think the Varys set up is far more likely and only gets even more likely, considering the epilogue of ADWD.

Considering how that books ends I have a hard time believing it was anybody other than Varys.

[Queen of Spades]

Adelstein, on 05 June 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Well, Tywin has an enormous amount of time and respect for himself. He believes himself to be the only competent member of his family, has bullied and dominated everyone his entire adult life, including three kings, and has no particular time for religion or any of that foolishness. He's not going to let something minor like constipation (probably in the early stages thereof) get in the way of banging his least favourite son's lover. I mean, who does this illness think it is, anyway? Doesn't it realise this is Tywin Lannister? I'm sure this is just a misunderstanding.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm sold on this theory.


Just a question....at what point can a theory be considered fact?  When is it ok to to say, "when Oberyn poisoned Tywin" instead of "the theory that Oberyn poisoned Tywin"?

[ShadowKitty]

Very convincing! Much ado was made about how bad Tywin smelled, this explains it a bit more.

[jlk7e]

danm_999, on 05 June 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

It's literature, not everything has to have a "point".

Hidden plot elements do.

[johnniewalkr]

Was just listening to ASOS on a re-read (or listen, in this case) and during Tyrion X, right after Shae's testimony, Tyrion notes that Tywin's face is so dark that he wonders if he also "drank a cup of poisoned wine" (paraphrasing as I don't have access to the text at the moment). In any case, given GRRM's propensity for wordplay and subtlety, I thought immediately of this thread.
Just food for thought

Edited by johnniewalkr, 12 June 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[danm_999]

jlk7e, on 12 June 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Hidden plot elements do.

They really don't. That's kind of the whole point of something like a red herring, or some of the incredibly, incredibly obscure callbacks or foreshadowing GRRM uses. They don't have a narrative point; they're just there to reward the careful readers and play with their expectations.

The books are written in a way that they're not going to explicitly spell everything out for you, because GRRM has commented in the past he doesn't write in third person omnipresent. The books will never tell you Cersei's getting fat in AFFC, you're left to figure that out yourself based on her paranoia that her clothes are being shrunk by her handmaidens. The books will never tell you Arya sucks at needle work because Septa Mordane is forcing her to use her right hand, and she's left handed, you're left to figure that out yourself based on carefully noting which hand Arya uses when she begins her Water dancing lessons.

The books deliberately leave a lot up to interpretation and wordplay, and while I don't like telling other people how to experience literature, reading these books and only accepting evereything you're explicitly told as true is the wrong way to do it.

Edited by danm_999, 12 June 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[jlk7e]

danm_999, on 12 June 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

They really don't. That's kind of the whole point of something like a red herring, or some of the incredibly, incredibly obscure callbacks or foreshadowing GRRM uses. They don't have a narrative point; they're just there to reward the careful readers and play with their expectations.

The books are written in a way that they're not going to explicitly spell everything out for you, because GRRM has commented in the past he doesn't write in third person omnipresent. The books will never tell you Cersei's getting fat in AFFC, you're left to figure that out yourself based on her paranoia that her clothes are being shrunk by her handmaidens. The books will never tell you Arya sucks at needle work because Septa Mordane is forcing her to use her right hand, and she's left handed, you're left to figure that out yourself based on carefully noting which hand Arya uses when she begins her Water dancing lessons.

The books deliberately leave a lot up to interpretation and wordplay, and while I don't like telling other people how to experience literature, reading these books and only accepting evereything you're explicitly told as true is the wrong way to do it.

These are really minor points that have little directly to do with the story, and that readers noticed years ago.  I realized that Cersei was gaining weight on my first reading of AFFC - it's not obscure at all.  None of these things is anything like having a secret explanation of a major character's death that nobody notices for over a decade and that is never confirmed.  This is more like Jon's parentage - if we're to believe that Oberyn poisoned Tywin, there will need to be some sort of confirmation beyond the very loose circumstantial case the OP put out there.  It's a nice theory, but it's nothing unless it's confirmed.  That's not at all like noticing carefully placed details about Arya being left-handed.