18 replies to this topic

[TickTak77]

IF YOU HAVE NOT READ UP TO ARYA PROVIDING JAQEN H'GHAR WITH THE THIRD NAME OF DEBT AT HARRENHAL, PLEASE BE WARNED OF SPOILERS.

So I've just finished reading a Clash of Kings, and something is bothering me about Arya and the story arc surrouding Harrenhal.

Arya sees a bunch of men from the north whose faces + sigils she recognizes, being captured and brought into the dungeons of Harrenhal. Seeing those men, who she references as men who were loyal to her father, and now to Robb, she is spurned into action to try and release them - leading to the crafty selection of the third name for Jaqen.

Fast forward a little, and the northmen are released and take control of Harrenhal. Roose Bolton is one of the higher ranking men from the north.

Now the question - if Arya knew these men, and they were clearly loyal to Robb, why would she not have outed herself as being Arya Stark, and therefore been given protection + safe passage back to Winterfell/Robb/etc ?

It seemed very strange to me, that Arya, even though in the presence of men who were loyal to her brother, chose not to speak up. She continued to keep her identity a secret, even to thoese men (Nan, Nymeria are her name, etc). Now later on we learn that Roose Bolton's bastard son Ramsey is a feared character in the North, but up until this moment in time we haven't been given any indication to distrust Roose Bolton at all. Why would Arya not reveal that she was highborn of Winterfell to these men? Have them protect her, etc?

[justashadow]

Arya was afraid (seeing the horrors of other prisoners at Harrenhall) and didn't know whom she could trust. Perhaps if she had told them her name, they might hold her for ransom.

Edited by nightshadow, 04 June 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[vjott]

Yes, she probably distrusted the Leech Lord (Bolton) the instant she saw him. I recall thinking the same thing as well when I read that part. My second guess would be that she wanted to get back to her mother and was afraid that Bolton might keep her for a while before sending her back. It all probably comes down to mistrusting Roose Bolton. Arya has become a bit like a wary cat since everything that she's experienced.

[Winter's Lion]

I agree that it's because Arya has just learned not to trust anyone. She won't disclose her true identity to someone until she's really, REALLY sure about them.

[echoer11]

im not absolutely certain but i think she expresses her doubts, besides she recognizes the sigil of the flaying men and knows of their cruelty....
and when she meets roose bolton she doesnt like him either

[Half man! Half man!]

I have another question about this chapter, so I'll just leave it here instead of starting a new thread.

So it appears that even though Arya had used more thought with this "third death", she still kind of screwed herself and wasted a death. Unless I am misunderstanding, it sounds like Vargo Hoat and Roose had already come up with a plan to take over Harrenhall for the North, and that the whole "prisoner" thing was just their way of sneaking 100 extra swords into Harrenhall (pretty smart plan by the way!!)

Can someone confirm this?

[AegonTargaryen]

Half man! Half man!, on 14 June 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

I have another question about this chapter, so I'll just leave it here instead of starting a new thread.

So it appears that even though Arya had used more thought with this "third death", she still kind of screwed herself and wasted a death. Unless I am misunderstanding, it sounds like Vargo Hoat and Roose had already come up with a plan to take over Harrenhall for the North, and that the whole "prisoner" thing was just their way of sneaking 100 extra swords into Harrenhall (pretty smart plan by the way!!)

Can someone confirm this?

I didn't know about this though I could be wrong. I was under the impression that Roose and his men were routed by Gregor Clegane at the time that Arya pulled the trojan horse operation. Only after the northmen took control of Harrenhal did they open the gates for Roose. I didn't think that Bolton had a hand in planning the takeover of Harrenhal.

[Half man! Half man!]

AegonTargaryen, on 14 June 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

I didn't know about this though I could be wrong. I was under the impression that Roose and his men were routed by Gregor Clegane at the time that Arya pulled the trojan horse operation. Only after the northmen took control of Harrenhal did they open the gates for Roose. I didn't think that Bolton had a hand in planning the takeover of Harrenhal.

Well Gregor was with Tywin and his host in the chapter before this getting their butts kicked by Riverrun, so I don't think he would have been able to get back to where Bolton is so quickly.

When Arya frees the North men, they ask her if Hoat sent her. Arya was confused and Jaqen explained that the Goats (Brave Companions)  have no loyalty. So that tells me that at some point, Bolton and Hoat reached an agreement that the Companions would help Bolton take over Harranhall. Obviously, Bolton could have brought his full host and tried to take Harrenhall the old fashioned way, but by Hoat bringing "prisoners" to Harrenhall, they were able to take Lorch (who we all knew wasn't close with Hoat to begin within) and his people unawares for a quick and easy victory.

The rest of Bolton's host got to Harrenhall just a few days after the takeover, which tells me that they were pretty close and just awaiting word that the takeover was a success.

Edited by Half man! Half man!, 14 June 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[Half man! Half man!]

Also, just went back to the beginning of the chapter to read Hoat's explantion to Lorch about how he captured the prisoners. He said that he caught Bolton and his men trying to cross the rivers, cut his van to pieces, and killed many. Then Bolton fled, and they rounded up the prisoners to bring back to Harrenhall. No mention of Gregor.

Sounds like this was a nice little variation of the Trojan Horse, and while Arya and Jaqen certainly didn't do anything to hurt Roose Bolton's cause to take over Harrenhall, it would have gone down eventually regardless. Still, I guess the third name wasn't totally wasted for her, as it did help her get her new job as the cupbearer for Bolton.

Glad I caught this this time. I didn't catch it in my first readthrough.

Edited by Half man! Half man!, 14 June 2012 - 09:22 PM.

[AegonTargaryen]

Half man! Half man!, on 14 June 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Also, just went back to the beginning of the chapter to read Hoat's explantion to Lorch about how he captured the prisoners. He said that he caught Bolton and his men trying to cross the rivers, cut his van to pieces, and killed many. Then Bolton fled, and they rounded up the prisoners to bring back to Harrenhall. No mention of Gregor.

Tx for the clarification. This is what I was referring to. I always remembered that Bolton's army got routed crossing the river, but had misremembered and assumed Gregor was leading the Lannister men.

[starvinmarvin]

Hoat and Bolton definitely planned to take over Harrenhal before Ayra colluded with Jagan to release the prisoners. In addition to being asked if Hoat had sent them to free them (the prisoners) Arya makes the point to notice that the seemingly injured northmen showed no signs of being hurt as they fled the dungeon indicating that they were faking when they were "captured" by Hoat. So in that regard, Ayra did waste he third and final death.

[Retoreance Stone]

Half man! Half man!, on 14 June 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

I have another question about this chapter, so I'll just leave it here instead of starting a new thread.

So it appears that even though Arya had used more thought with this "third death", she still kind of screwed herself and wasted a death. Unless I am misunderstanding, it sounds like Vargo Hoat and Roose had already come up with a plan to take over Harrenhall for the North, and that the whole "prisoner" thing was just their way of sneaking 100 extra swords into Harrenhall (pretty smart plan by the way!!)

Can someone confirm this?

Not so much a plan, you have to remember Hoat and his gang are just mercenary they pick what ever side they think they can profit the most from. When Bolton showed up Hoat just figured that it was better to let him take Harrenhall and work for him. Remember Harrenhall is a big place Hoats group would not have been able to hold the place against a large vanguard.

[evening gale]

I had the same question.  Here is another; is the weeping Frey boy she comes upon the one that, unbeknownst to her, she is betrothed to?  He says that his family has been dishonored and that he has lost his "princess" and must now become a septon.  Arya then briefly shares her sorrows with him, and when he shows his disregard for her she says she hopes his princess dies.

[Half man! Half man!]

evening gale, on 01 July 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

I had the same question.  Here is another; is the weeping Frey boy she comes upon the one that, unbeknownst to her, she is betrothed to?  He says that his family has been dishonored and that he has lost his "princess" and must now become a septon.  Arya then briefly shares her sorrows with him, and when he shows his disregard for her she says she hopes his princess dies.

Haha wow, didn't even think of that, but that makes complete sense. Don't know who else it could be.

[evening gale]

I usually don't read as closely as I should, but so many people have commented in this forum that GRRM puts everything, even the smallest detail, in for a reason.  So I reread that passage a few times and it started to make sense in light of that plot line.

[evening gale]

Plus I know some other plot details from watching the series on HBO that helped it make more sense as well!

[Darth Vader's Bastard]

She didn't trust them. Rightfully so it seems. Keep reading and you will understand.

[Half man! Half man!]

Darth Vader, on 06 July 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

She didn't trust them. Rightfully so it seems. Keep reading and you will understand.

I wish people would realize that saying stuff like this is a spoiler.

[evening gale]

Half man! Half man!, on 06 July 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

I wish people would realize that saying stuff like this is a spoiler.

I think people just forget.  I've made a few mistakes myself.  It's dangerous hanging around in these threads!

Edited by evening gale, 06 July 2012 - 06:14 PM.