55 replies to this topic

[Kekerusey]

Hi,

MODS: I'm not absolutely sure where to post this in these forums so my apologies if I end up getting it wrong ... please feel free to move it as required.

First of all a word of thanks ... I have heard that it was communities like this that pushed HBO for Peter Dinklage to be cast as Tyrion. An absolutely inspired choice if I may say.

Secondly, let me say there are SPOILERS in this so please be warned

I'm writing a review of the series so far (for my website) based on the books and the TV series. At time of writing I have read all the books (Kindle) and am less than 48 hours away from seeing second season finale on Sky. I have "Game Of Thrones: Season 1" on blu-ray.

Many of you, I know, will have come to this series from the books but both I and my best friend came to it from the "Game of Thrones" TV series which was superb. On the strength of that, as I've done with several other films/series, I (actually we) decided to read the books and I absolutely loved the first one ... brilliant can't fault it. The book was, like the TV series, quite awesome the former being more expansive and providing detail the series couldn't, whilst the latter had its own kinds of magic ... I prefer the on screen versions of Tyrion, Daenerys  & Jamie but many other characters are better in the books.

The two of us read on ... books 2 and 3 weren't quite as good as the first but were still excellent but from book 4 in particular things went significantly downhill with the fourth book feeling like an introduction to great events to come and book 5, "A Dance With Dragons" utterly failing to deliver. The problem, it seems to me, is that book 5, part 1 is just too long, has too many irrelevant stories, too many irrelevant feeling new characters and stories about people not doing much of anything. An example of this (and again can I say SPOILER) is the introduction of the Dornish prince at the beginning of book 5, his shaping up as a major character, and subsequent death near its end ... why? I mean yeah, people can come back to life and maybe he will, but currently I'm forced to ask what the point was if he turned out to be so damned irrelevant? A worse one (for me) is the fate of Jon which nearly made me give up on the series ... I'm now in what I think of as "BSG Mode" in other words determined to read/watch on, reckoning it can only go uphill from here but seriously concerned that it can (as implied by the phrase) turn out to be much, much worse (as, in fact, it did in "Battlestar Galactica" ... there's a review of that on my site if anyone is interested in why I felt that way about that series).

But back to my concerns ... talking with my friend it became almost a catch-phrase to say something like, "well there goes another X chapters about Tyrion/Daenerys/Cersei doing absolutely nothing of interest whatsoever". In essence the plot simply did not seem to advance over book 5 in any significant way. Mr. Martin, it seems to us, could (should?) have combined both parts of book 5 and cut out the dross; the whole could (should) have been shorter than book 5 and the reader would have lost nothing of real value.

So that's my view on the series so far ... I'm still interested enough to carry on with it but it's almost a kind of bloody-minded fascination if you will, a hope that the book series will improve, a hope that the TV series will diverge more from the books (there seem to be elements of divergence in season 2), an almost sick feeling of déjà vu and a fading hope that that we aren't.

Finally, can I stress that this is not meant as a negative review of "A Song of Ice & Fire" but just outlines my concerns with where it's going, what is likely to happen and with the way if being written at present. I welcome any comments, especially any reasons to feel more upbeat, as I would really prefer my review to be more positive than it's currently shaping up to be.

Keke

Edited by Kekerusey, 05 June 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[Thallus]

This feels like an advertisement.

[ManyFacedOne]

Kekerusey, on 03 June 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

An example of this (and again can I say SPOILER) is the introduction of the Dornish prince at the beginning of book 5, his shaping up as a major character, and subsequent death near its end ... why? I mean yeah, people can come back to life and maybe he will, but currently I'm forced to ask what the point was if he turned out to be so damned irrelevant?

To turn Dorne against Daenerys, ensuring they'll side with Aegon, further adding to the drama that will be the second Dance of the Dragons.

[Kekerusey]

Thallus, on 03 June 2012 - 02:36 AM, said:

This feels like an advertisement.

Sorry ... it's not but my apologies anyway.

Keke

[Kekerusey]

ManyFacedOne, on 03 June 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:

To turn Dorne against Daenerys, ensuring they'll side with Aegon, further adding to the drama that will be the second Dance of the Dragons.

Thank you ... that's something I hadn't thought of.

Keke

[Lummel]

Kererusey,

I guess from what you say that you have only read the series once, you've read it quickly and you're burden by your own expectations.

If you reread, and reread carefully then you start to notice that a lot is happening that isn't immediately apparent on the surface - have you thought about the meaning of the songs that Manderley asks to be sung at the wedding of Ramsay and Arya?  Several stories with big plot implications are told just through the choice of songs - if you pay attention and are picking up on these things.  The whole book is like that, a lot that is significant happens while nothing is happening.  There are wars that are won with ravens and you have to be alert to that in the text.

If you expect plot progression above all else then you are going to be disappointed since much of the story is about character progression, the influence of history and the inevitability of grinding failure, loss and personal catastrope like a ship caught in the ice.  Atmosphere above all is important, you're meant to feel the gloom and think dark wings dark words when you see a raven overhead.  If that's not to your taste you don't have to read it you know...

[Thallus]

Kekerusey, on 03 June 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

Sorry ... it's not but my apologies anyway.

Keke

In that case can you post your question and just the question, without the History of Keke attached.

Also, signatures can be set via the panel on the top.

[Kekerusey]

Thallus, on 03 June 2012 - 02:57 AM, said:

In that case can you post your question and just the question, without the History of Keke attached.

Also, signatures can be set via the panel on the top.

It is not, "The History of Keke" as you so delightfully describe it, it's what I think of the series ... it took me an hour, maybe 90 minutes, to frame what I wanted to say so, with respect, no.

As for signatures, I think you err ... I cannot do that until I have 100 approved posts. I appreciate the replies others have made though however, with people like you jumping on noobs like me, I think it highly unlikely I'll get there

Keke

[Thallus]

Borges once said he only writes short stories because anything worth saying can be said concisely and precisely. Length is a crutch for writers who begin without knowing what they're doing. (That goes doubly for you GRRM).

If you don't have the effort to write without fluff here, I don't have the effort to read it.'

Some of this forum will and have, good for them, I hope you get your question answered.

[Kekerusey]

Hi Lummel,

Lummel, on 03 June 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

I guess from what you say that you have only read the series once, you've read it quickly and you're burden by your own expectations.

Yeah ... I'm not saying I wouldn't but typically I will only read a series once. I smiled when you suggested I read it quickly ... ahem ... er ... not sure what excuse to use at this point

Lummel, on 03 June 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

If you reread, and reread carefully then you start to notice that a lot is happening that isn't immediately apparent on the surface - have you thought about the meaning of the songs that Manderley asks to be sung at the wedding of Ramsay and Arya?  Several stories with big plot implications are told just through the choice of songs - if you pay attention and are picking up on these things.  The whole book is like that, a lot that is significant happens while nothing is happening.  There are wars that are won with ravens and you have to be alert to that in the text.

So read several times? That's fine in principle but in practice I read a lot of stuff. I mean I've just read the Hunger Games trilogy, currently reading the last book of Joe Abercrombie's "First Law" trilogy and planning next to read the second book of Iain M. Bank's excellent "Culture" novels. Add to that there's film 'n TV (I'm mad on blu-ray right now, I've got some 20 odd blu-rays and maybe 100 hours of DVD I need to watch and there's regular series like GoT, Dexter, Hell on Wheels, Grimm and quite a few others to watch), websites ( I run 2), computing (it's my job and I am learning Joomla development at the moment). And these are only my hobbies ... I work, I have my wife 'n kids to look after and so on. So yeah, not beyond possibility but not easy either.

Lummel, on 03 June 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

If you expect plot progression above all else then you are going to be disappointed since much of the story is about character progression, the influence of history and the inevitability of grinding failure, loss and personal catastrope like a ship caught in the ice.  Atmosphere above all is important, you're meant to feel the gloom and think dark wings dark words when you see a raven overhead.  If that's not to your taste you don't have to read it you know...

Fair points

Keke

[Kekerusey]

Thallus, on 03 June 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

If you don't have the effort to write without fluff here, I don't have the effort to read it.'

Good plan

Keke

[Fragile Bird]

Kekerusey, on 03 June 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

As for signatures, I think you err ... I cannot do that until I have 100 approved posts. I appreciate the replies others have made though however, with people like you jumping on noobs like me, I think it highly unlikely I'll get there

Keke

Oh don't worry about him, he's obviously having problems sleeping, and you know how cranky tired people can get.

I have to echo (echo...echo...echo...) Lummel here - the books are so layered that you miss a great deal on your first read.

And which books are enjoyable can really vary from person to person.  AGOT obviously drew me in, and the next 2 were action packed, but my favourite after AGOT is AFFC.  I loved the Jaime POVs, how he was dealing with the loss of his hand, his issues with his father and sister, and his handling of Riverrun and the other problems he deals with.  I enjoyed Brienne's POVs for all the historical information about Westeros.  And Sansa's for her growth, and the wild adventures of Arya.  ADWD dealt with the other side of the narrow sea until the timelines on both sides met up.  As for Quentyn, George Martin doesn't do things without purpose.

So re-read, and wait with the rest of us for the next book.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 03 June 2012 - 03:25 AM.

[Kekerusey]

Fragile Bird, on 03 June 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

Oh don't worry about him, he's obviously having problems sleeping, and you know how cranky tired people can get.

Old people get cranky too ... I know, I'm one of 'em

Fragile Bird, on 03 June 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

I have to echo (echo...echo...echo...) Lummel here - the books are so layered that you miss a great deal on your first read.

Understood ... I will try and do that

Fragile Bird, on 03 June 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

So re-read, and wait with the rest of us for the next book.

Oh I absolutely will read the next one ... at risk of committing the same sin, I just hope Mr. Martin picks up the pace a bit (and stops killing off my favourite characters)

Keke

[DaniSnowborn]

Kekerusey, on 03 June 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

As for signatures, I think you err ... I cannot do that until I have 100 approved posts. I appreciate the replies others have made though however, with people like you jumping on noobs like me, I think it highly unlikely I'll get there

I think you don't need to have 100 posts to have a signature, I'm new here too, and I've already got one

[Rinso]

To be honest, I kind of see where the OP is coming from, even though I'm a fan of this series long before the TV show came out (and I don't find the show to be the best thing since sliced bread, by the way).

After waiting for 5 years to read ADWD, I couldn't help but feel underwhelmed. I think the biggest problem of this series at the moment is the lack of strong focus. Plots and subplots swell exponentially with no hope for satisfying resolution in sight. I really question whether we truly needed the whole new subplot with "Aegon"'s invasion for example or the inclusion of whole new sets of characters for whom its impossible to care with the same strength and passion as with the ones we've been reading about since the beginning.
ASoIaF is a huge story, yes, but after ADWD I felt that a big part of that is just filler. Some of those problems began to rear their ugly heads as early as ASOS, to be honest, but back then I thought that the unnecessary swelling wouldn't go much further and won't become much bigger. You know nothing, Rinso.

For what is worth, GRRM is a kickass writer and I really enjoy the way he's telling his story, but I'm currently re-reading ADWD (and when you skip Dany's chapters entirely it suddenly becomes a much better book!) and I feel like I'm watching a kid in a toy store running around from stand to stand with eyes big as saucers and unable to focus on anything for more than few seconds. He should get his shit together and focus on dealing with the story and leading us towards the final instead of adding new things to the mix.

IMO and all.

Edited by Rinso, 03 June 2012 - 03:43 AM.

[Fragile Bird]

Kekerusey, on 03 June 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

Old people get cranky too ... I know, I'm one of 'em

Lol, punk.  I'm older than you are.

ETA:  And I don't consider myself "old people".  Lol.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 03 June 2012 - 03:47 AM.

[Howling Mad]

There are many threads and posts on this site addressing the readers frustrations with the slow progression of AFFC and ADWD.  With that said Lummel's post is dead on ASOIAF is a multied layered tome with new insights and fun easter eggs discovered upon each rereading.  Since you are new to this site I'm sure you will have your mind blown learning for the first time the multiple hidden plots, subplots, and easter eggs within the 5 books.  You would also benefit from visiting the SSM "So Martin Spake" which has a compilation of articles, interviews, conversations with GRRM that provides insght into his writing style and thought process behind the books and HBO show.

I to was a big fan of the BSG remake on SciFi (I was a big fan of the original BSG) and I think I understand your comparison.  However I agree with Thallus your inclusion of the BSG reference smacked of SPAM.  I encourage you to explore the threads and be prepared to be about how much you've missed in your reading.

Also you can make a custom sig/footer anytime.  The custom titles are unlocked after 700 posts.

[Lummel]

Kekerusey, on 03 June 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

...Yeah ... I'm not saying I wouldn't but typically I will only read a series once. I smiled when you suggested I read it quickly ... ahem ... er ... not sure what excuse to use at this point

Ah ha!  Guilty as charged then!

Kekerusey, on 03 June 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

So read several times? That's fine in principle but in practice I read a lot of stuff...

Nah I'm not saying you have to read them again but if you've sped your way through them and read them only once you're going to miss a lot.  No shame in that...there is thread upon thread on these boards about details that people have missed.  But sorry, you've only got yourself to blame, the books were written for rereading!

When I read through ADWD last summer there was a continually sound of clanging and clanking as the pennies were dropping with every other page.  Really I could've and probably should've kept a notebook open just to scribble down everything that seemed significant.  All the pieces matter here.

[Lummel]

Rinso, on 03 June 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

...I'm currently re-reading ADWD (and when you skip Dany's chapters entirely it suddenly becomes a much better book!)...

Hmmm.  That's kind of my point, you can't read and understand Jon's chapters without Dany's.  The two are in parallel in my opinion, in fact I'll give a shameless plug for the rereadthat we are attempting just to have a look at that.  GRRM is giving us two varients of the same story, you know unless he came round to your house on his knees he could hardly beg you harder to compare the two, what they are doing and how they both end up failing.  By chucking out one part of that you are missing out on what GRRM is trying to say I think.

Given that the whole thing is called a song of ice and fire I suppose it's not surprising that there are characters and sections of the book that are in counterpoint (maybe Jaime and Brienne, probably The Ned and Tywin) to each other and virtual reptitions like the Prince of Winterfell chapters in ACOK and ADWD.

[HyacinthGirl]

It's a shame your attitude toward the latter books in the series is negative. I actually thought books 2 and 3 were better than book 1, if not equal to. And if you pay attention to book 4, it is rewarding: it's by far the most subtle book. I loved book 5 so we obviously disagree on the quality of the subsequent books... I will say that book 5 feels like GRRM's editor didn't even look at it, there is probably a bit too much there for the casual reader, but being obsessed with ASOIAF that did not bother me. Books 4 and 5 are basically setting up the board for the conclusion of the series but they're still fantastic and I don't see them as "filler" at all, although I know some people do.

EDIT: I forgot to say, I read all of the books in one go. I've noticed that those who had to wait five years for AFFC or six for ADWD seem, generally, more disappointed than those of us who could carry on with the story straight away. That's something to take into consideration.

Edited by HyacinthGirl, 03 June 2012 - 04:38 AM.