Lord of Insignificance Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Arthur Dayne=Mance Rayder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Rhaegar is dead. No man can hear the story of what happened to his little girl and son and not seek to avenge himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 So much is made of all the time Jon spends training with swords, and of his skill in this area, that it is a bit of an anticlimax to see him cut down to size so effortlessly by Mance Rayder, who has grey streaked hair and is probably well into his forties.Do we know how old is Mance? I used to put him somewhere around 35 or younger, because Jon remembers him as the "young crow" at Winterfell. Jon was about 4 at the time, which would make Ned around 22-23? I just don't think any child would call someone "young" who is older than his father... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazingoopah Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I think I know why Rheagar died at the Trident... because he was so tired from reputedly fathering half of Westeros! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakenhelm Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 What would be nice is a Mance point of view where he reflects on the fight with Jon and thinks something to the effect of - that was the most naturally gifted swordsman he had ever fought and it took a massive effort to hold his own against him, or something to that effect.The way Jon was talking about the fight though, Mance was swinging his greatsword faster than Jon could swing a normal longsword, and instead of tiring, he was just breezing through the fight.Very disappointing.I was thinking the exact same thing. It also made me wonder why Mance would even want to challenge Jon at that point, esp. when Mel makes a warning that the glamour can teeter. It's risky. I am convinced there is something more to that 'duel.'I also find it odd that Jon would spend all this time fighting and training just to be dealt with that easily.a crackpot is that Jon is being set up and slowly being drained of something, his life or strength leading up to his killing where he is practically immobilized. I understand its all happening fast, but maybe his strength and reaction time are slowly being sapped by something and it is affecting his judgement as well. So maybe its not super Mance, but a lessened Jon. I would have to do a re-read though to see if any of this makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budj Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Arthur Dayne=Mance RayderI've postulated this in the past. Another poster said due to the physical appearance it would be more likely Whent of the KG...but it seemed to me like Dayne was the last man standing in that fight with Ned / Howland. Perhaps Dayne took to the harp in Rhaegar's honor :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donalnig Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Okay we are told that Mance's mother was a wildling and he was raised at the wall.I just think he is too good for a common wildling because....... He can speak the old tongue fluently, he is an amazing bard, he is influentual and he is a fantastic swordman.Here are some ideas.Rhaegar Targaryen.....He seems like an odd choice here is my evidence. Mance is obsessed by the Bael the bard tale, Rhaegar's love for Lyanna Stark is similar. He kidnaps her the Starks search for her but in the end they find she has fallen inlove and with child (Jon is probably Lyanna's and Rhaegar).Mance is amazing with swords, Rhaegar was also a great warrior. Mance is influentual and it is said the poor cheered for Rhaegar more than there king.Rhaegar loved music so does Mance.Many say now 'but Rhaegar died'. MAYBE HE DIDN'T. I think Eddard worked out the true reason for Rhaegars love of Lyanna and the only reason why he was in the rebellion was because his father and bro were killed. Now hear is what happened. Eddard captured Rhaegar before the Trident as a member of House Stark sent him to the wall and said he would protect his sons and daughters. Or He wasn't at the battle ( It seems odd that the amazing knight Ser Rhaegar fell to Robert who was basically just strong) he was with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. The Kingsguard fought Eddard but he prevailed. As Lyanna was dying i think she gave birth to a still born. Lyanna's last wish was Eddard help Rhaegar, the man whom she loved, from Robert. He thought the Stark way, what is the best place for him to hide a go incognito. The wall and Night's Watch. The free cities would be way to high profile for a Targ and the Wall erases your past history. They faked a history, Eddard probably persuaded the Watch because he was a Stark. Now Rhaegar as mance sees himself trapped but he has a new identity so he becomes king beyond the wall. We also know he thought he was Azor Ahai and Mance thought the Others. Having said this i believe he wasnt captured by Ramsay and he sacrifice all to save mankind against the Othersmance rayder is (drum roll) ......................................................................................................................................................................................................... mance rayder!!! a former brother of the nights watch who's parents were wildlings and the nights watch adopted him after killing his parents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Insignificance Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 there is never a solid description for Dayne. FF just made up that picture for the card game. Martin never describes Dayne. Daynes have had brown eyes and brown hair. Arthur Dayne could have looked like Varys for all we know (except for the whole Morning sword and sword of the morning :P ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
998 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Mance is obviously Arthur Dayne. Just replace Rhaegar's name and leave the rest of the explanation untouched.edit: beaten to it! :ohwell: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Sand Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Mance Rayder is the love child of Walder Frey and the unknown Mother of Eddard Stark.It's obvious. 'Rayder' is just 'Walder Frey' with the names reversed and some of the letters left out. And 'Mance' and 'Mother' start with the same letter; an unmissable clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 *sigh*Isn't it bad enough that the otherwise perfect Jon is half Targ? Why must we besmirch the Mance with the "T" word too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Mance Rayder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xango Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Mance RayderI too subscribe to this theory. We see all throughout the book that people refer to this enigma of a man...as Mance Rayder. Has the series gotten to the point where a guy isn't allowed to be good with swords and harps without a grand conspiracy? I know Occam's Razor hasn't worked all the time in this series...but maybe he spent a lot of time swinging swords and plucking strings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciazio Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Mance RayderI couldn't have said it in a better way.ETA: i think I have to change my signature, the Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne thing is not listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I too subscribe to this theory. We see all throughout the book that people refer to this enigma of a man...as Mance Rayder.Has the series gotten to the point where a guy isn't allowed to be good with swords and harps without a grand conspiracy?That sounds about right. Everyone is either a skinchanger, a secret Targaryen or a Faceless Man, especially if he's good with sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblair Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 No one saw Rhaegar get killed. They saw the FM bearing his likeness get killed. Fun fun fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciazio Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 No one saw Rhaegar get killed. They saw the FM bearing his likeness get killed. Fun fun fun.So Rhaegar was dead the same. A FM may only wear a dead man's face. :cool4:Anyway. I don't want to play the "mine is longer than yours" game here and I can't (or don't want to) recall all the evidences in favor or in contrast to the "Mance is Dayne" theory, still I want to ask some questions to them who believe in it:What's the purpose in having Dayne (or Rhaegar) not killed but well alive beyond the Wall? Why should GRRM make something like that? What's the plot need in having them around now?I don't believe they are dead because I've rock-solid evidences, but because there are plot needs in them being dead (dead dead dead). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cortnay Penrose Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 My theory is that Mance is a descendant of Bloodraven. He did wear a ravenwinged helmet when he went to battle.My crackpot theory is that both Mance and Qhorin Halfhand knew about Bloodraven and was/is communicating with him.And if anyone was Arthur Dayne, my guess is the Halfhand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 *sigh*Isn't it bad enough that the otherwise perfect Jon is half Targ? Why must we besmirch the Mance with the "T" word too.Everyone's a secret Targ according to the forums. Damn Targs certainly got around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz95 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 So... wait: Rhaegar, the awesome prince who was so loved by his people, wanted to bring down the Wall, invade and raid the Seven Kingdoms? Besides, Mance was twice in Winterfell (during Robert's visit and as Abel) and you would have us believe that noone recognized him? And that beyond the wall he had the stuff to dye his hair (and eyes...) brown every day? I'm sorry, but Mance Rayder is just Mance Rayder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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