563 replies to this topic

[Jolene Brown]

Noelle Snow, on 03 June 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

I'm not even going to get into the whole Robb/Cat/Talisa thing because that's probably the one thing I'm annoyed that they changed so much.

Sometimes I wish I could just meet them and ask why, why, why did they make these changes.  I don't think I could ever accept them but if I could even understand what on earth they were thinking it might help me feel less frustrated.  With other things that I don't like, I sort of get it, but with this, I just can not comprehend their train of thought.  Why mess with this storyline?  It's not like there was this groundswell of fans that were like, well, I mostly like these books, but I don't know about that whole Red Wedding thing, I think it could be a little better.  I just don't understand.

[wotad]

god you people want so much i loved the episode didnt read the books but you can say i wont get it etc.. i know they leave stuff out but its hard to add 5/6 people into 1 episode so i think this episode was the best i watch the show because i like danys story and it didnt let me down

Edited by wotad, 03 June 2012 - 11:25 PM.

[Lord Godric]

Oh, and is Dagmar supposed to be Ramsey?  Or is he just an annoyed Ironborn who is trying to get safe passage home?  I think the latter, right?

[Rockroi]

Dénouement .  

What I liked:

All Men Must Die: This episode brought that finality after the climax; after a long life has been lead- maybe into a  legend, maybe a life of service, maybe a Handship- we still all end up dead.  Usually not by our own choosing.  I thought that this episode identified to the bitter end that some ends are more bitter than others.  

Jon Snow, 2.0: The battle with Half-hand in the books is basically a passive-voice battle wherein events sort of happen TO Jon and Jon never acts to DO anything; even the final swipe that kills Half-hand, in the books its almost described as if Jon Snow took no part in it .("But in that instant, as he twisted, the opening was there. Jon planted and pivoted. The ranger was leaning away, and for an instant it seemed that Jon’s slash had not touched him. Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man’s throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell” Martin, George R.R. (2003-01-01). A Game of Thrones/A Clash of Kings (Kindle Locations 27767-27770). Bantam. Kindle Edition).  

And besides, Ghost was the one who attacked Half-hand first.

But in the show?  Nope!  Here, Jon is an active participant in the deed!  THIS Jon Snow actually takes some action; he takes a stand and decides to embrace his roll and take a shot at this!  LOVED IT!  I even enjoyed the way Jon teased Ygritte as she slashed at him and missed and then as he tells the truth (“…first time you have ever held a sword, huh?”).  This Jon Snow is freed from the foolish chains that bound him in the books (the reluctant hero nonsense.  I liked that with Jon Snow goes a man who is going to do his hard fought duty.  And as for Halfhand- all men must die, few as cool as that.  


No Starks in Winterfell: Although the destruction of Winterfell MUST seem odd to the viewers who have not read the books, the finality of these scenes were exceptional.  I thought Bran and Rickon’s escape and departure were very well done and beautiful.  The wolves, the scenery of desolation, the wreckage.  And obviously, once again, Master Luwin was amazing; the pure and unalterable feeling of humanity and goodness from him; how he touched both these boys; reached out to them and sad that he knew every day of their lives from the first and counted himself lucky for that privilege.  That was truly touching, deep and real.  All men must die but few as dignified as that.  

And I loved that Theon was crazy and the ngave this incredible speech ... and then his men knocked him out because he's such a fucking idiot.

Does Stannis Baratheon Have to Choke a Bitch?  Stannis is alive, well and rip shit.  At first he takes it out on Mel, but then knows that is not … just.  In the flames he sees … something.  Prophecy means nothing to him as he regrets, deeply, his killing of Renly.  But in a whisper he hears that he will do things far, far worse than that.  And Stannis…A. King. Knows.  All Men Must Die and Stannis Baratheon May be killing a few more of them.  Soon.

The Edge of Our Sanity: Dany’s trip through the wreckages of her life and alternate lives- from the Throne she still wants, to the Husband and child she lost, to the Wall she must defend, Dany’s trip through worlds that would be and could be was phenomenal (though… a part of me thought “this could be done better…. No Viserys?  Rhaegar?).  Regardless, what was actually done was great.  At least this part (see more below).   All men must die, especially creepy shits who can pull of mass assignations but seem to be confused on proper kidnappings.  

Varys and the whore: Holy shit we finally get to a Roz scene that worked!  Only twenty episodes in but it finally happened!  Granted, it took one of the best actors to pull it off, but it worked!  Huzzah!  

For YOUR troubles:  Pyrcell’s small revenge was sweet, but so is Tyrion’s ever increasing knowledge that he is in quicksand.  Varys gives him empty platitudes (though maybe heart felt), his father is nowhere to be found, his guards gone, his clansmen gone and the world suddenly outside his view.  And that little coin at the end.  A whore is a whore is a whore.  For your troubles… classic.  (and I almost could stomach Shae's part of the scene.... almost).

The Beginning of the End: All Men Must Die, but some come back as wrights and Others and try to invade the South.  Amazing final scene!  

What I am On the Fence about:

Before the New Gods and the … Okay Just ... Just the New Gods: The fact that when Robb Stark- The KING in the North, mind you- marries a woman from another continent he swears it ONLY by the NEW Gods it was an unfortunate allegory to how cheaply, tacked on and phony this story line finished.   Its not that he did not say anything about the Old Gods- that’s just a symptom; it’s the fact that Robb Stark does this INCREDIBLY STUPID thing with his mother standing there (in her tent) and does so with full knowledge of how FUCKING STUPID he is being!  He knows he’s being an ass; he knows he is screwing the Frey’s and he just does it!  In the books, Robb could say “I needed to make an honest woman out of her”; in the show?  In the show Robb has no protection; he really IS just a stupid, irresponsible oath-breaker!  He does everything with real contemplation.  That was always my fear once Cat came back and Robb was still there; that his choice to toss the Freys aside would not have that same dimension it did in the books- in the books, Robb was “rash”, “impulsive” and “young.”  But in the show?  Now Robb is not “rash” but “foolish”; not “impulsive” but “idiotic”, and no longer “young” but “immature.”  He wants everything NOW!  NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW!  

You know how bad that was?  IN the scene where Robb was talking to Cat – if you go back and READ the scene- just take the dialog- Robb does not sound like Robb; he sounds like … Joff.  

Skipping Book Three:  So, the Brienne scene.  Total waste of time.  What happened?  What did we need to see here?  Brienne got angry and killed a few guys.  We knew she could kill people already.  Brienne showed that she does not like needless suffering; we knew that already as well.  Jaime showed that he did not want to be captured; well, we REALLY knew that already.  What the fuck was this scene for? (the actual answer is “The actors have agents and demand screen time.”)  It was a complete waste of time.  I mean here is what the scene was: travelling with Brienne, seeing the after-effects of a war, seeing cruelty, and most everything we saw could have been skipped;a complete waste of time.  

In other words, they are not just starting early on “A Storm of Swords”; the show is jumping right into the epic monotony of “A Feast for Crows.”  

What I did Not Like:

Empty:  I liked that she corrected Doreah on how to pronounce Qarth.  I liked that she caught Doreah.  

And the rest of Dany’s story-line was utterly vacant and empty.  Void of thought, void of meaning, void of connectivity to the rest of the story.

Look, it was not going to be as interesting as the books, I got that.  But this felt tacked on, half-thought out and not well balanced against the rest of the story.  Dany’s story was a story-line of half-measures that took twice as long as it needed to.  It was no fun and utterly anti-climactic.  She starts yelling in the very first scene and then its wandering around.  Then she gets trapped and we get the “Drogon dracarys”… and its … bad.  They shoot fire.  Who cares?  That just means Pratt Prye et all had a fucking terrible plan.  You know they’re dragons, right?  You think maybe they know how to shoot fire?  In the books, Drogon Dracarys is the most amazing scene in the series (possible); here?  A really, REALLY shitty escape hatch.  

But it gets worse.  Dany and her people- who seem to fluctuate in number between “three” to as high as “Able to break into the King of Qarth’s Castle, kill everyone and get into the King’s bed chamber without waking him up” – take the King and Doreah to the vault where its empty (ohhh… edgy) and throw them in.  Terrific.   They then ransack the place.  And remember- these are LESS PEOPLE than Dany had when she failed to protect the Dragons the first time!  And we waited four episodes … for that.  

For Dany to open and empty vault.  If that’s not a metaphor for Dany’s story line in this season, I’m not sure what is.    

Clash of Kings is pretty void of Dany and the show did not have much to work with.  But they wasted SO MUCH time and space on Qarth- on political maneuverings we did not care about; with plots that had more holes in them then a sieve; with characters we had no chance to care about.  All of that was empty, vapid, selfish and utterly wasted.   In retrospect you could have made Dany trapped in the House of the Undying for two episodes and just done a better job of it.  Instead we got a fast-forward House that had NOTHING to it (except what I noted in the scenes I liked) and a plot against Dany that had no substance or reality to it.  

Simply put: Fail.  

Overall, though, the episode was pretty good, not great.  However it did what it needed to do without making it feel rushed.  

Overall:  This season was uneven, but ultimately very satisfying.  It started off with good building blocks and gave us a lot to see, interact with and enjoy.  From Robb and Jaime to Stannis v. Tyrion it was a really enjoyable season that did all the things it needed to do and gave us a few moments of real flair and and drama.  There were slow points – ultimately Robb’s love problem appears to have been too much “love” and not enough “problem” in Robb’s mind; Dany’s journey was not just unfulfilling but took away too much time from the rest of the story- but it had a series of amazing moments and maybe the best episode in the show’s short life (Blackwater).   I am really looking forward to the next season.  Again.  

(and to all those who explain how much they enjoy my posts- either through comments or the “Like” button, I really, truly appreciate it.  Thanks for reading).

[Lord Godric]

ThePickler, on 03 June 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

It seemed like a perfect opportunity to drop an AA reference in Stannis and Melisandre's scene. I'm really confused about why they continually avoid any prophecy mentions.

I thought so too.  I was waiting for some kind of reference.

[niñostark]

I was thinking, the house of undying should have, I don't know... undyings?

I hated Jon's arc, horribly done

BTW I'm not a purist, I just hate fan fiction

I LOVED the white walkers !!!

[Lord Godric]

Rockroi, on 03 June 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Empty:  I liked that she corrected Doreah on how to pronounce Qarth.  I liked that she caught Doreah.  

Was that Doreah?  I knew it had to be someone, but I did not recognize her at all.

[Chelly]

I can't even...brain is mush right now...

LOVED Theon's scene with Luwin. He was pretty hilarious about the guy who kept blowing the horn. Heh. I sort of loved his "northern mating call" speech. It was pretty funny. Oh, and FUCK YOU DAGMER(I don't care how sexy I think your voice is ).

Dany was badass. She's so awesome on the show. Oh, and FU Doreah as well. Justice for Irri!!!! I loved her raiding Xaro's things in the end.

Sansa's reaction to no longer being engaged to Joff was wonderful. It was very well conveyed since we can't be in her thoughts like in the books. Oh, and FU Littlefinger, too. "I thought of your mom as a sister" (yeah whatever)

Goodbye beautiful, gorgeous lovely face Jaqen. Hello weird looking man.

House of Undying was fine. As a book reader, there were stuff I wish I got to see, but on its own it is okay. It is just not as cool as it was on the books. I would have liked some prophecy. Aren't they kind of important for her story?

Not too crazy about Robb/Jeyne whoever marriage or his attitude to Cat. Call her what you will, but his reaction to her was NOT very kingly. He sounded like a spoiled little brat. She should have smacked him upside the head, He came off more whiny to me on the show than he did in the book.  Also found the Jon/Halfhand bit to be lacking.

[Tarandor]

Prince of Dragonstone, on 03 June 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

The House of the Undying was a bit of a let down but I did enjoy the scene with Drogo and Rhaego. Very sad. I also enjoyed how they got the ominous feeling down right. Even the vision of the Red Keep in ruins was good. But lacking the other visions was disappointing. Some book scenes just cannot be translated onto the screen and this was one of them. It still got the point across though. I loved how they allowed Dany to be badass in the end and lock Xaro and Doreah in the vault. Yay Khaleesi!!!

I'm glad they kept the little touch of Tywin's horse pooping in the throne room. Nice!

I'm not a big crier...at all. But I must admit I got teary eyed when Tyrion started bawling. I really, truly do love this character and Peter Dinklage really is a revelation in the role.

The end scene with the Others and their armies of the undead was FANTASTIC and made up for the disappointing HotU scene. Loved how the ended last scene with Fire and now they end this one with Ice.

April 2013 cannot come soon enough!

Oh my gods, RIGHT? It was heartbreaking to watch him bawl like that... Peter Dinklage is just fantastic.

[Lord Godric]

Now that the season is over I realize that I have one major gripe with the series, both seasons.  But first a disclaimer: I am by no means a purist.  I except changes and understand the differences in the mediums call for differences in the stories and I love seeing the added scenes because it is like extra scenes we didn't see from the books.

But with that said, my major gripe is that they're cutting all the backstory.  And I understand how hard it is to fit backstory into the show but, and I noticed it especially in the House of the Undying, I really wanted to see Elia and Rhaegar and have some mention of the Prince that was Promised.  I was hoping in that giant wall scene to see some blue flower among the ice, but then I realized we never were told anything about Lyanna and blue flowers so it wouldn't have been meaningful at all.  I miss that stuff in the series, but I guess that's why I have the books.

[Jovet]

That end scene with Theon was a bit surprising to me.  It almost struck me that the guy who has been egging him on was maybe really the Bastard in disguise after all?  He suddenly got very authoritative.  And then they put Theon's head in a sack?  Will be a long wait to see what really happens with that in season 3.

[Ser Joe of House Targaryen]

I liked most of this episode. the HotU scene was really different from the books and I'm ok with that. If they had done a word for word adaptation, viewers who havent read the books would've been left too confused. I thought we were going to see Aerys, though. What happened to the actor who was cast as the "mad king" for this episode? Hopefully that will be on the BluRay.

The scene where the Stark kids find Luwin was just heart wrenching.

As always, all the Tyrion stuff was just awesome.

Loved Jon Snow and his reaction to the wildling camp.

Just how much they showed of the wights and the Other was shocking, but they made Sam too much of a craven.

Watching it for the 3rd time now and overall I like it. The show and the book are separate for me and I love them both for what they are.

[Tetrarch42]

I really disliked Stannis' characterization, I always saw him as stoic, brooding, and irritable, not a man who flies into rages and strangles others on a whim. It seems almost like the different screenwriters are interpreting his chracacter completely differently. He went from a determined, just, and somewhat depressed/dour commander in episode 8, to a reckless action hero in episode 9, and now he's a tempermental domestic abuser? Pick your key chracteristics and stick with them until there's adequate explanation for a personality change, Stannis seems like he'd be diagnosed with dissociative personality disorder at this point. Pretty upsetting that they've reduced my favourite character to a mercurial bully.

Other than that, I was pretty satisfied with the episode, would have been cool to see Arya kill someone; but the ending more than made up for that.

And a note on the ending, they really changed the White Walker style, they went from black and shadowy to pale with hair? Are we dealing with different types of White Walkers, or entities all together?

[int11]

The White Walkers were absolutely terrible.

Why do they walk so slowly, staring up at the sky, pretending to be dead like a five-year-old would? The only thing missing was their tongue hanging out. I felt like I was watching Shaun of the Dead. That was simply embarrassing.

The supernatural is a delicate aspect of ASoIF and should be handled in a way that doesn't lessen the story.

Edit: Yes, wights. Though the White Walkers weren't impressive either.

Edited by int11, 04 June 2012 - 03:17 PM.

[The Crannogman]

Where the hell is Ghost?!

I was really looking forward to seeing Tywin's horse shit in the throne room, but at least they included it..unlike Renly's damn peach.

and... where the hell is Ghost?

oh, and how is Sam going to get out of THAT predicament?

I'm not even going to begin to discuss the major plot changes or the butchering of the HOTU, I can't even stomach it. I guess we should all try and think of it as something to kill the time until the next book is released/written.

[House Snow]

One problem with the prophecies besides the ones already mentioned is that they haven't even happened yet.  Tough position for the writers to have to put in something that they don't even know what it will mean and will be important 3-5 seasons from now.

[Qwop22]

int11, on 03 June 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

The White Walkers were absolutely terrible.

Why do they walk so slowly, staring up at the sky, pretending to be dead like a five-year-old would? The only thing missing was their tongue hanging out. I felt like I was watching Shaun of the Dead. That was simply embarrassing.

The supernatural is a delicate aspect of ASoIF and should be handled in a way that doesn't lessen the story.

Completely agree.

[pinkie10]

This episode proved one thing for sure: Varys is definitely a eunuch. There have been theories that say he is not truly cut, but now we know he most certainly is (in the show, at least).

Also, I didn't like how Luwin didn't tell Osha to split the boys up. That seemed important to me. I can picture them running into the Reeds in the first episode and they will recommend the split. Rickon must go to Skagos and become even more fierce!

And the one thing that is crazy to me is the fact that Brienne is just straight up killing everyone. She's already killed 5 guys so far but in the books, when she is forced to actually kill her first men, it's a giant deal. And it happens way later. She doesn't willingly just kill a ton of people.

Did like the episode on the whole, though. It's just easier to come on here and complain rather than name all of the things I liked.

I like the final scene, even though I never really pictured... zombies. I guess I don't know what I pictured. But it wasn't that. I like it and I like that I'll have a nice visual on my re-read of the series in the next 10 months.

I thought the HotU was fine. Granted, we didn't see anything us 'bookies'/'nerdies' wanted to see, but I liked the sacked throne room. A vision that maybe suggest Dany will be taking that shizz over? Possibly.

[Jovet]

I actually liked the scene with Brienne and Jaime.  The point of it was Jamie got to see what she was made of.  I thought it was great when she let loose.  And I know I'm a guy, but the look on that third guy's face the whole time she was stabbing him in the groin was absolutely award winning.

I also generally liked Jon's scenes and storyline.  It didn't seem to be told as well as it could have, and I never grasped a real thought process of why a "guy on the inside" is suddenly a great idea.  But overall it didn't bother me.

The marriage ceremony with the new gods surprised me.  I would like to think there was some sort of subtle rationale for it but I bet it was just a writing error.

I was not touched by Tyrion's teary eyes... every sentimental moment with Shae he's been doing that and I just don't see that his character would be doing that.  His first marriage left him bitter and cold and detatched, and I have great difficulty believing that he'd let himself feel that strongly for someone again.  It makes sense he cares about Shae, but there is a limit.  I also note the irony that the one person who really seems devoted to him (Shae) is the one he tries to push away.  Everyone else he has proclaimed his friendship with has kind-of rolled their eyes at him - "okay, whatever".  To me what happens with her and Tywin is ambigous in the books...it will be very interesting to me to see how the show handles that.

Except for Dany's scenes (especially in the House of the Undying) I liked the episode, but I still think it was the poorest of the second season.  Overall the show is awesome, and I can't beg HBO enough to keep it up!  I'm really looking forward to next year, and hopefully several years after that!

[ThePickler]

int11, on 03 June 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

The White Walkers were absolutely terrible.

Why do they walk so slowly, staring up at the sky, pretending to be dead like a five-year-old would? The only thing missing was their tongue hanging out. I felt like I was watching Shaun of the Dead. That was simply embarrassing.

The supernatural is a delicate aspect of ASoIF and should be handled in a way that doesn't lessen the story.

I think you mean the wights, there were two white walkers on horseback. The wights were described as slow and clumsy in the books and they are essentially zombies so how else are they supposed to act ??