[Book Spoilers] Game of Thrones, an adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire? Not any more.

[Niere]

I can't remember what happened in the book, did Dany lock Doreah in that room? That bit took me by surprise, I didn't think it was something her character would do.

[Djinn]

Avoiding the whole book vs tv debate. Season 1 was, IMHO much better written and paced then season 2. And there's a clear gap in quality in the writing between episode 9 and episode 10. Have to agree with most of the critices to the final scene with the white walkers. Looked like a cheesy Walking dead scene.

[victim]

I can't remember what happened in the book, did Dany lock Doreah in that room? That bit took me by surprise, I didn't think it was something her character would do.

Doreah actually died in the first Dany chapter of Clash. I knew they kept her around for a reason. That turned into a change I quite liked.

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

I can't remember what happened in the book, did Dany lock Doreah in that room? That bit took me by surprise, I didn't think it was something her character would do.

No Doreah died from starvation/exposure/thirst in the Red Wastes, before Qarth. In fact, even before they find the abandoned city.

Basically, none of that happened. Xaro Xhoan Daxos was on friendly terms with Dany even after she burned down the House of the Undying. None of the "Thirteen" stuff had happened in the book.

Yeah, I agree, I didn't think it was something Dany would do. She's tough, but not at all sadistic. Made her seem rather "Targaryen" in all the wrong ways. Actually, most of her scenes this season, several of which have her screaming and ranting, have seemed pretty Targaryen-y, by which I mean, crazy. Which of course, is the exact opposite of the portrait of Danaerys that Martin has spent the series painting.

[Jameson Snow]

I think the biggest reason the HotU was so disappointing was because we spent like 4 or 5 episodes hearing about this place and just kind of dicking around in Qarth, waiting til we get to go check it out. And it ended up being just the epitome of anticlimactic. I'm not so upset that they changed the content of what was in there, but more so that they had all this time with Dany where she's just doing effin' nothing. I feel like they shouldn't be so concerned with confining the seasons to a particular book. Like, let's go to the HotU in episode 6 or 7, and maybe meet Arstan in 8 or 10? Or something along those lines. There's plenty of stuff for her to keep busy with next season. Point is, ADVANCE the story. Khaleesi was one of my top 3 favorite characters in Season 1. Now she is absolutely my least favorite. She whined and complained and just yelled about her dragons all season long.

My biggest disappointment was Theon's storyline. We don't get any sign of Ramsay. Then Roose mentions him in back to back episodes, giving us hope. Then the theories were a-flyin' about Dagmer=Ramsay and we're waiting to see something happen and who is right and end up getting squat! The Ironborn betray him. No Ramsay. Yet. I was looking forward to this big reveal all season long. Never happened. Just a bummer, man.

I understand people saying it's an adaption and we should stop complaining. But if you watch/read any interview with GRRM, you will hear him say how many times he turned people down who wanted to adapt his story into movies/shows because they were not staying true to the story! I could understand if this show was created and the author had no involvement and it was just an interpretation, but that's really not the case here. D&D have said how important it is for them to tell GRRM's story the right way. Well, after this letdown of a finale, I have to say I don't think they're staying true to their word.

[valyrian_steel]

I have to say they have completely ruined the character of Margery Tyrell. First with the scene with Renley where they imply a sexual relationship with Loris (or at the very least they r very open about Loris' sex life), then she goes on with Littlefinger about wanting to be "the queen" and now she is throwing herself at Joffrey in the Red Keep. Certainly nothing like the girl in the books.

[Iceswan]

I think the HotU just shows the difficulty of converting these books into a TV show. I don't agree with a lot of their choices, but in a way I do understand them. You can't show the first vision, of the RW. Its way to obvious. In the books, we don't yet know of Robb's terrible marital decision making skills, but in this episode we have just learned about it. It goes from foreshadowing to outright ruining the biggest twist in aSoS.

As for the Elia and Rhaegar scene, true it would be nice to see it, but for anyone who hasn't read the books, you're completely lost. I don't think they have even said Elia's name in the show. The blue flower on the wall of ice is an even larger problem. Even if you show it, it has no meaning at all to a non-book reader. People who do read into this had to really go looking for meaning. To us it is very significant, but without a flashback explaining the significance of the blue rose in relation to Lyanna (which would mean giving us the whole Tourney at Harrenhal, opening a new larger can of confusion worms) it isn't necessary to the story. It hurts, but it has to go.

To your point, I can see no real reason not to end with the actual undying though, I thought their prophecy would have been fine, and actually very interesting, as they immediately pertain to Dany's story and her decision making.

On a side note, I have a feeling that the first scene in S3 is going to be Winterfell as the Ironborn attempt to leave peacefully as Robb Stark instructed, and how the Bastard of the Dreadfort brutally makes his intentions and mindset very clear.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Agree that not only was the House of the Undying a letdown, but the whole sequence didn't make much sense. First, they've been mentioning this house for like five episodes by now, and giving how creepy Pyat Pree is, I expected, and I'm sure new viewers did also, something sinister and creepy inside.

Instead, we get Dany wandering around a snow covered Throne Room and then having a loving conversation with her dead husband. Just anticlimactic. What was the point of her seeing Drogo and leaving out all the creepy visions and prophecies? I really have no idea.

Now to the stuff that doesn't make sense. Actually, Pyat Pree's reason for keeping Dany in the house of the undying makes sense, since his magic will be bolstered. But really, he didn't anticipate that dragons could burn him? Plus, only a few episodes ago that dragon could barely roast a small piece of meat.

Also, how was Dany able to infiltrate Xaro's mansion so easily? He's now the king of Qarth, figured he would have increased his security. Plus, she suddenly gained a bunch of Dothraki, who I thought died in the attack when her dragons were stolen.

[Arrogant Bastard]

I think the HotU just shows the difficulty of converting these books into a TV show. I don't agree with a lot of their choices, but in a way I do understand them. You can't show the first vision, of the RW. Its way to obvious. In the books, we don't yet know of Robb's terrible marital decision making skills, but in this episode we have just learned about it. It goes from foreshadowing to outright ruining the biggest twist in aSoS.

I think tehy could have kept the king with the wolf's head. The natural reaction to that should be "Robb will become king" since the king has a wolf's head, and obviously the Starks sigil is the Direwolf. There's no way tv viewers coudl interpret that as to what really happens.

[Castel]

A whole bunch of things about this episode don't make sense. I can see them cutting the prophecies, but the entire plotline of the Undying was just lackluster. Drogo being involved was just pointless and the ending somehow managed to be worse than in the book. But at least the plot of the warlocks, if not the house itself made sense.

What wasn't explained properly was why the boys had to somehow run to the Wall. The Ironborn betrayed Theon and presumably went home. But by cutting out the burning of Winterfell we don't know who fucking did it. If it was the Ironborn, then there should be no problem and the boys should be able to stay since the castle is now in the hands of the Boltons- Stark men. If it was the Boltons then I could see the argument here, but it wasn't shown, I think they just assumed that people knew this from the books or wouldn't look too deeply into it.

Yeah, I agree, I didn't think it was something Dany would do. She's tough, but not at all sadistic. Made her seem rather "Targaryen" in all the wrong ways. Actually, most of her scenes this season, several of which have her screaming and ranting, have seemed pretty Targaryen-y, by which I mean, crazy. Which of course, is the exact opposite of the portrait of Danaerys that Martin has spent the series painting.

Dany is sadistic. Look at what she did to the men at Yunkai. It was pure sadism. And I think it fits Dany pretty well, she has this fucked up idea of justice. Depending on what exactly Doreah did, I can totally see her pulling this. She did it to the Yunkai.

[Castel]

On another note; Jon's fight with Halfhand makes little sense as well. Jon didn't kill Halfhand because he turned sides, he did it because the Halfhand was trying to chop his head off, that doesn't make him trustworthy now does it? Ygritte surely knows the truth here. It was pretty quick the way the cut out a lot of the running that Jon and his rangers had to do but this is the price you pay for it.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

It remains an adaptation of ASOIAF, an adaptation that has not successfully adapted some aspects of this great story (I am particularly disappointed with how Qhorin Halfhand was treated) while still remaining a pretty good series despite that but of course not as good as the books. Could they have done a better job? Sure, and that means that some criticism is justified but it still a good job for a tv adaptation and a good show. So as a book reader I am neither perfectly pleased and I do have several disappointments but I not furious either. The show has entertained me.

[Arrogant Bastard]

On another note; Jon's fight with Halfhand makes little sense as well. Jon didn't kill Halfhand because he turned sides, he did it because the Halfhand was trying to chop his head off, that doesn't make him trustworthy now does it? Ygritte surely knows the truth here. It was pretty quick the way the cut out a lot of the running that Jon and his rangers had to do but this is the price you pay for it.

Also, why are the wildings so impressed that Jon killed Qhorin? They had already captured Qhorin and could have killed him any time they wanted to. Plus, Qhorin of the show was so incompetent that a simple decision of leaving Jon to behead Ygritte led not only to the deaths of all his rangers but getting himself captured. On teh show, it just doesn't seem like Jon killing Qhorin is nearly enough to get the wildings to let him join them, especially since they know how incompetent Jon is.

[Howdyphillip]

Hi Linda,

I thought of you and Elio immediately after the HotU and knew how upset you were going to be. I think that I gave up with being angry with adaptation changes during LOTR movies when in the first, they cut my all time favorite character in literature Tom Bombadil. To me, Tom's character in Tolkien's world was the most important character in the series because he represented what they were fighting for. He was the counterbalance of good to Sauron's evil.a huge reason that I paid money for my ticket was to see him.

Well, Peter Jackson didn't have the same interpretation that I did, and I still don't really forgive him, but I have learned to adjust. I went to see the movie a second and third time in the theatre, and gradually my anger faded and I was able to enjoy the beauty of the things that we do have. I think that this experience is the reason that as an absolute lover of ASoIF series, I can still enjoy the GoT TV show.

Did D&D mangle plot elements... Well, yes they did. The HoTU is particularly egregious, and as I know that this plot point is your Tom Bombadil, I won't even begin to argue. I am just hoping that you will be able to get past this gut punch and find a little love in your heart again for this series. Your reviews and input make the show that much better for all of us, so I am just hoping that you get a fraction of what you give to it.,

[mormont]

[mod] Two things:

First, if you have nothing to contribute but criticism of people who either criticise or defend the adaptation, please don't bother. Discuss the episode and the adaptation all you like: keep your opinions of each other to yourself.

Second, anybody who decides that we don't really mean what we say in the documents linked in my sig is wrong. We don't want any rudeness on either side. Posts have been deleted and some suspensions will follow. Play nice or else. [/mod]

[Sheep the Evicted]

Don't bring me this "I don't care if it's the same...I just want good writing" because 95% of non-book readers love the writing on the show.

That's actually quite a fair point. So i guess from now on i'll just go with "i want writing that's in the unconventional, character-focused, multilayered, tightly-plotted spirit of the books ?"

[Baelor Blackfyre]

As for the Elia and Rhaegar scene, true it would be nice to see it, but for anyone who hasn't read the books, you're completely lost. I don't think they have even said Elia's name in the show. The blue flower on the wall of ice is an even larger problem. Even if you show it, it has no meaning at all to a non-book reader. People who do read into this had to really go looking for meaning. To us it is very significant, but without a flashback explaining the significance of the blue rose in relation to Lyanna (which would mean giving us the whole Tourney at Harrenhal, opening a new larger can of confusion worms) it isn't necessary to the story. It hurts, but it has to go.

I just want to start out by saying in no way am I arguing with your point. Just wanted to go off of it. And I freaking love this show and would never quit watching it.

But I don't understand this point people keep making about non book readers getting lost or not understanding it. When anything is first introduced; whether it be a character, location, or plot line, you have to come to understand it. And sometimes it takes time or effort. Especially in fantasy.

When we first all read or saw the Others, we had no freaking clue what was going on, but eventually we understood it. When we all first read the HotU, we definitely didn't know what the hell was going on. And that was the beauty of it, readers are still going back trying to decipher that lonely chapter. I personally didn't understand the wolf on a man's head as foreshadowing the RW when I first read the books, even though now we all look by at how obvious it is.

I personally think its better for them to introduce these "hard to understand" things rather them exclude them. D&D were very surprised at how easily audiences picked up on the first season, so I'm sure they can pick up on everything else.

I think Mad Men is a somewhat descent example to show this..I have watched four seasons of that show and I love it. But man sometimes they talk about stuff and I have no freaking clue what their talking about, whether it be about business, politics, or history. They don't dumb down their show. And just because I don't understand every bit of dialogue or catch every reference on the show, it doesn't make me not want to watch the show.

So if I would give them any advice for next season, it's stop being so concerned about the "average" viewer.

(And by the way, its kinda cool to be on a topic Linda started personally. ha)

[spmoura]

Have I missed something here?? Isn't GRRM part of the creational process of the series? Aren't any changes made by D&D supposed to be reviewed and approved by GRRM?? Are you people saying that GRRM is not in accord to what is being done to his creation? Is that it??

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Instead, we get Dany wandering around a snow covered Throne Room and then having a loving conversation with her dead husband. Just anticlimactic. What was the point of her seeing Drogo and leaving out all the creepy visions and prophecies? I really have no idea.

Speaking as a viewer who was generally disappointed by opportunities squandered in the show's treatment of the HotU, I feel obligated to say that the Drogo scene wasa big exception.

I saw it as reframe of the red-door room from the book. Obviously, there has been no exposition regarding Ser Willem Darry, but I think Drogo and Rhaego accomplished the same dramatic purpose much more effectively.

That purpose being to tempt Dany with an impossible vision of what she has lost along the road to her destiny.

[Jayaris]

What scenes did you guys want included that would of made any sense? Ratmen raping a woman? Obvious Spoilers of Robb's Death? Rhaegar who's that guy Targaryen?