350 replies to this topic

[dtones520]

VivaVictarion2, on 05 June 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

They wouldn't even have needed a weirwood, just a godswood.
You know, leading up to the first season, I remember hearing interviews with Benioff and Weis where they talked about how much they loved the books. Benioff (i think) in particular said it was, to paraphrase, one of the greatest things he's ever read. Liar. Ignoring the asoiaf mythos and continuity is not something a fan would do. I'm not talking about changes to the plot for realistic budgetary/showbiz/scheduling/whatever demands. Hell, Im not even talking about their whitewashing of several characters (jon,arya,tyrion,robb oops just talked about it). Things like the robb-talissa septon marriage help me to realize that the creators of the asoiaf adaptation are not true fans of asoiaf.

I'm not understanding how they ignored ASOIAF mythos when Ned Stark (you know, Robb's father, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North) got married in Riverrun's sept. Not in front of a Weirwood, not in Riverrun's Godswood, but in a Sept. Which probably means that a septon also did the ceremony. So, they show a marriage, that we knew nothing about the ceremony, include aspects of the Seven into it, but have it in front of a big ass tree, at night, in a likely Godswood (which is similar to Ramsays marriage) and they know nothing about ASOIAF and aren't true fans of the series.

So tell me, because no one is doing this, if you created the show, how would you have portrayed Robb's wedding to Jeyne/Talisa? Now keep in mind, they are in the Westerlands where there are few Weirwoods, a few Podunk godswoods, Jeyne follows the Seven so she will probably want some of her faith included as well. I'm not sure anyone can do much better.

[Burt Clegane]

Some really dramatic statements on here.

I'm a reader of the books and a fan of the TV show.

Sure, some of the finer points of the book that we all know and love, have been lost in the adaptation, but that is just how it works. We'll always have the books, that won't change, but the TV writers have a tough job adapting such beloved material.

So far, I don't think the TV writers have missed many steps.

Sure, I wish they'd made the Halfhand scene clearer, possibly have put an emphasis on what a strong fighter he is and how loyal he is to the Nights Watch, but ultimately he said to Jon in a previous ep "you have to do what needs to be done." "One of us in their camp is worth a hundred outside." (words to that effect) and his dying words to Jon "We are the watchers on the wall", reminding him of his duties, rather than cursing him for killing him, make it all quite clear for someone willing to go back and think clearly about it, that he let Jon kill him.

As for Lady Tulisa, I like this change. Jeyne in the books just seemed like a passenger. Partly because we never got a Robb POV, but she just seemed there. Tulisa has a backstory, you can see why Robb fell in love. Her medical knowledge might be crucial later when it comes to a certain potion being avoided?

Some of the nitpicking is going too far. The Wedding to the Seven could play out to be a major part of the willingness of some of his men to turn on him.

Let's just enjoy the show for what it is. A flawed, but highly faithful and visually striking adaptation of a beloved series of books.

[The Black Wolf]

I was already rather disappointed (concerning this) after watching what I thought was otherwise a pretty good episode, but now, after reading this thread, my outrage has grown to a ridiculous size...

My main problem is not how the wedding was performed. I always imagined it happened in a sept in the books, though it made more sense there since it wasn't as much a thoroughly premeditated wedding as it was two kids eloping. It was a bit jarring to see the King of the North, the Young Wolf, Robb Stark, the heir of Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell of the blood of the first men, recite the names of the seven with such...hmm...devotion? But otherwise it didn't particularly bother me.

My problem is why the wedding was performed. I already pointed it out in the general discussion thread for this episode, but Robb is acting like a totally selfish brat... He just married a random Volantene girl! She is a nobody in Westeros! She isn't even from a noble house! Gods be good, SHE DOESN'T EVEN OWN A GOWN FIT TO BE WED IN!!!

Kings in Westeros don't marry commoners; they marry the pretty daughters of important and powerful lords. Perhaps sometimes they marry the daughter of a slightly less important lord, but never would they marry what is basically a camp-follower!

You know, trading the Freys for the Westerlings was a really bad deal, seeing as Robb exchanged some thousand soldiers for 50, with only a dozen knights. But Talisa brings absolutely nothing. This marriage would be an even more grievous insult to the Freys than the one with a Westerling... and in this case there aren’t nearly as many excuses that you could possibly make for Robb’s behaviour.

Edited by The Black Wolf, 05 June 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[Matthew Marzolf]

Maybe he was so gung ho to get hitched he used the nearest officiant available.

[Howdyphillip]

Burt Clegane, on 05 June 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

Sure, some of the finer points of the book that we all know and love, have been lost in the adaptation, but that is just how it works. We'll always have the books, that won't change, but the TV writers have a tough job adapting such beloved material.

This isn't a finer point, or a nuanced change to a character. This is the writers fucking up their own story.

Can we hold the writers accountable to the story that they themselves are telling?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Well, Robb is King of the North *AND* the Riverlands, and in the Riverlands most worship the Seven.  And having been raised by Catelyn I'd think most of their children probably prays to both. And if there are no Weirwood trees I can see them doing it with a Septon.

My main problem is that the vows are wrong.  Where is the cloak and he has to put on her?  We know what a marriage ceremony with the Seven looks like in Sansa/Tyrion wedding, why did they invent something different?

[MoonCoffee]

This will be a tl;dr post, just want to let this out of my system.

IIRC I saw a tweet from Bryan Cogman admitting that Karstark swearing to the Father earlier was a mistake. I caught it when watching, but I can tolerate it. In the grand scheme of things, it's not important. But Robb marrying under the Seven is really annoying me. It's my number one grievance from the finale; I can even accept the evisceration of prophecies in the House of Undying. The way Robb has been handled this season is really bad, to the point that I wish all his bannermen would just leave him in a ditch somewhere. I've seen several fans trying to make sense of things as:

1. There is no heart tree nearby
Possible, but if that is so, then Robb can wait until he finds one. There is no reason why he must rush.

2. His wife worships the Seven
Jeyne Westerling perhaps, but not Talisa Maegyr, a Volantene. The Seven is a Westerosi god. Honestly it makes me suspicious whether it's a remnant of when she was still "Jeyne" (we know this because Richard Madden and Oona Chaplin both confirmed that the character's name change happened after Oona was cast), same way I felt when Talisa was hesitant about going to the Crag. We may never know. But even if for some unknown reason she worships the Seven, it brings us to...

3. His mother worships the Seven, and so does Sansa
Yes, Sansa prays to gods Old and New, but Sansa is not Lord Stark's firstborn son and King in the North. As Cat pointed out, Robb's position comes with responsibility. He can't expect people to die for him while trampling their customs. He can't expect people to keep their vows to him if he can't keep his vow. Even if all his siblings go and worship the Seven, R'hllor, Drowned God or whatever, Robb would be expected to keep the Old Gods. Even Joffrey so helpfully pointed out in this very episode that a king can't simply break holy vows.

Now, is it impossible that Robb is at this point just sick of everything that's not Talisa and wilfully abandon his promise to the Freys, his bannermen's sentiments, his mother's advice, and doesn't spare a thought about his siblings? No, but that just makes him impulsive, selfish and unsympathetic.

Going into the out-of-universe explanations:

4. They don't want to confuse viewers with too many religions
Ned prayed in front of a heart tree. Ned and Cat had pointed out their religious difference in S1. Jon said his vows in front of a heart tree. Maester Luwin in this very episode sits in front of that tree, reminding us of its existence. Theon in his desperation mentions Drowned God, Old Gods and the New. Viewers already know the diversity exists.

5. This is part of the writing, Robb will pay
Probable. But, as I said, also made Robb too unsympathetic. The disappointment doubles because they already cut down focus on Cat to prop up Robb as a more central character. Not worth it IMO.

6. They forgot/don't care
Also probably. That would be a pity, and making me rethink supporting the show financially.

Edited by MoonCoffee, 05 June 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[Burt Clegane]

The Robb in the TV show is a boy thrust into a situation that he wasn't prepared for. He's quite possibly a virgin (?) and has fallen head over heels in love. He wanted to get married ASAP in case something happened to him or he changed his mind. I'm prepared to suspend my disbelief and accept he just wanted any priest to marry him.

I'm not an apologist for the TV show, but let's just enjoy it. It's a 9/10 adaptation so far. Could get better, could be a hell of a lot worse.

[MoonCoffee]

Burt Clegane, on 05 June 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

The Robb in the TV show is a boy thrust into a situation that he wasn't prepared for. He's quite possibly a virgin (?) and has fallen head over heels in love. He wanted to get married ASAP in case something happened to him or he changed his mind. I'm prepared to suspend my disbelief and accept he just wanted any priest to marry him.

I'm not an apologist for the TV show, but let's just enjoy it. It's a 9/10 adaptation so far. Could get better, could be a hell of a lot worse.

Richard Madden decided to portray him as a virgin. But at the same time I don't believe having sex automatically makes someone stupid. It's not a momentary lapse either, Robb has been courting her for a long time despite Cat repeatedly reminding him, and him saying "I knooow". And he wasn't making the decision with a troubled mind, because they didn't know that Bran and Rickon are 'dead'. It's not a matter of suspending disbelief, it's a matter of connecting the dots and seeing that the character painted changed from being someone I feel bad for to be thrust in a difficult situation to someone I want to see fail.

I am enjoying the TV show. Theon is a joy to watch this season. I cried (in a good way) in the Winterfell scene with Luwin and the kids, even though I think it could be explained better why the Bolton men are not there to protect the Little Lord. I miss the prophecies in the HotU, and thinks her khalasar's going and coming is too convenient, but I'm still overall okay with the changes and entertained with Dany's vengeance and the dragons' antics. Sam's meeting with the icy horde is also an exciting cliffhanger.

I just really, realy don't like what is done with Robb's subplot.

Edited by MoonCoffee, 05 June 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[sumpthy]

MoonCoffee, on 05 June 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Jeyne Westerling perhaps, but not Talisa Maegyr, a Volantene. The Seven is a Westerosi god.

No it isn't. The Faith of the Seven comes from Essos.

[Burt Clegane]

But these are questions left open by the season finale.

I regularly question my friends who haven't read the books.

Most of them didn't realise that Quorin died on purpose. They aren't dim guys and gals, it's just hard to keep up with the minor clues, but looking back all those clues are there. Why would an enraged Quorin desperate for revenge, use his last words to remind Jon of his duties, rather than say something like "you've killed me you bastard scum"? Once you think about it, it makes sense.

As for Robb, he fell in love. He is the King, he's not going to listen to his mother who he is already extremely angry at for giving away his main leverage. He doesn't care what she thinks anymore and he ignores her warning. You are entitled to disagree and nitpick, but I don't understand why this plot would make you want 'Robb to fail'.

[Tenlaar]

MoonCoffee, on 05 June 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Yes, Sansa prays to gods Old and New, but Sansa is not Lord Stark's firstborn son and King in the North. As Cat pointed out, Robb's position comes with responsibility. He can't expect people to die for him while trampling their customs. He can't expect people to keep their vows to him if he can't keep his vow. Even if all his siblings go and worship the Seven, R'hllor, Drowned God or whatever, Robb would be expected to keep the Old Gods. Even Joffrey so helpfully pointed out in this very episode that a king can't simply break holy vows.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Ned Stark was married IN A SEPT.  They followed one man who was married in a ceremony honoring the seven but it's a deal breaker for another?  That makes no sense.

Edited by Tenlaar, 05 June 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[dtones520]

Tenlaar, on 05 June 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Ned Stark was married IN A SEPT.  The followed one man who was married in a ceremony honoring the seven but it's a deal breaker for another?  That makes no sense.

That's what I don't understand about people bashing this scene. Ned was indeed married in a sept, a septon probably did the ceremony, he probably said some vows to the Seven and he was Lord of Winterfell, Warden in the North, etc. We all know that there are no Weirwoods in the South, we know that Northern wedding ceremonies are very simple affairs that happen in front of a heart tree at night, we know the Westerlings follow the Seven. So, the show has them get married in front of a big ass tree at night by a septon with some cheesy vows to the Seven, seems to me that they were combining aspects of both religions.

Whether or not Robb's story sucked or not, this thread was about the Wedding, and no one bashing the scene has fleshed out how they thought Robb's wedding actually happened in the books.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

dtones520, on 05 June 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

That's what I don't understand about people bashing this scene. Ned was indeed married in a sept, a septon probably did the ceremony, he probably said some vows to the Seven and he was Lord of Winterfell, Warden in the North, etc. We all know that there are no Weirwoods in the South, we know that Northern wedding ceremonies are very simple affairs that happen in front of a heart tree at night, we know the Westerlings follow the Seven. So, the show has them get married in front of a big ass tree at night by a septon with some cheesy vows to the Seven, seems to me that they were combining aspects of both religions.

Whether or not Robb's story sucked or not, this thread was about the Wedding, and no one bashing the scene has fleshed out how they thought Robb's wedding actually happened in the books.

I bet in Robb's wedding in the books there was a cloak exchange, and the vows similar to the ones said by Sansa and Tyrion,  I don't mind a wedding by a Septon, but the ceremony should have been correct.

[Clariana]

I don't think it's entirely OOC... Robb has had an idyllic childhood and suddenly he's thrust into the middle of a bloody civil war, personally and directly responsible for thousands of lives. He's done some things very well, he's faltering in others... I'm with Burt above: He sees all this death around him. Dad is dead. His mum disappoints him... His sisters are probably as good as dead; he can only hope for the best re his brothers; Jon is lost to him at the wall; Theon turned his coat. He wants something for himself... Perhaps he's also thinking dynastically... The Starks have been decimated in just a few months...

[Tenlaar]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 05 June 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

I bet in Robb's wedding in the books there was a cloak exchange, and the vows similar to the ones said by Sansa and Tyrion,  I don't mind a wedding by a Septon, but the ceremony should have been correct.

This just seems to me like comparing getting married quick as you can by an Elvis impersonator in a Vegas chapel to the royal wedding last year.

[7V3N]

THE KING IN THE NORTH (doesn't worship the gods of all of his people?)

Well him and Lord Karstark can pray to the Father together.

Ned would not allow his heir, the future Lord of Winterfell and leader of the remaining First Men, to worship the Seven over the Old Gods. His bannermen would be furious and feel alienated. The North has always been unique and a key factor is their old roots--worship of the old gods, geographic isolation, their proximity to "the end of the world," the blood of the First Men. The North has remained untouched for thousands of years, with the exception of Aegon's invasion.

As Lord of Winterfell, he could get away with worshiping both. But as King in the North, and the first one in nearly 300 years, he represents the North in a huge way forever. The Young Wolf will be remembered and the North remembers. Worshiping the Seven would seriously alienate his people.

What if India's prime minister was straight out of Pakistan? The Indians would not like that.

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 05 June 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Howdyphillip]

sumpthy, on 05 June 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

No it isn't. The Faith of the Seven comes from Essos.

Yes, the Faith originated in hte Hills of Andalos which is on the complete opposite side of the continent from Volantus where Talasia is from. Not only that, but the religion is not even practiced there much at all because the region is almost abandoned as all of the Andals migrated to Westeros,

So, What's your point?

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Matthew Marzolf, on 05 June 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Maybe he was so gung ho to get hitched he used the nearest officiant available.

Aye.

Robb Stark has forsaken the Old Gods and the vow he made to Lord Frey.

I hope someone punishes him for this.

[Tenlaar]

The Shadow Fox, on 05 June 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Ned would not allow his heir, the future Lord of Winterfell and leader of the remaining First Men, to worship the Seven over the Old Gods. His bannermen would be furious and feel alienated. The North has always been unique and a key factor is their old roots--worship of the old gods, geographic isolation, their proximity to "the end of the world," the blood of the First Men. The North has remained untouched for thousands of years, with the exception of Aegon's invasion.

Hey, cool, another person completely ignoring the fact that Ned himself was married in a sept.

This is getting a bit repetetive.