350 replies to this topic

[dtones520]

The Shadow Fox, on 05 June 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

THE KING IN THE NORTH (doesn't worship the gods of all of his people?)

Well him and Lord Karstark can pray to the Father together.

Ned would not allow his heir, the future Lord of Winterfell and leader of the remaining First Men, to worship the Seven over the Old Gods. His bannermen would be furious and feel alienated. The North has always been unique and a key factor is their old roots--worship of the old gods, geographic isolation, their proximity to "the end of the world," the blood of the First Men. The North has remained untouched for thousands of years, with the exception of Aegon's invasion.

Hey genius, Ned got married in Riverrun's Sept.

[7V3N]

Tenlaar, on 05 June 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Hey, cool, another person completely ignoring the fact that Ned himself was married in a sept.

This is getting a bit repetetive.

Read on my friend. I specified that a Lord could do that. But not a King. Especially given Robb's situation as the first King in the North in nearly 300 years.

So, hey, cool another person completely ignoring the fact that selective attention just doesn't work.

dtones520, on 05 June 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Hey genius, Ned got married in Riverrun's Sept.

Read on


And I didn't even mention how Ned needed Hoster Tully's men. Perhaps if he wasn't desperate for support, he would have had a marriage on his own terms. It is assumed Ned married Cat to be honorable, but it very easily could have just been for Tully support in the war.

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 05 June 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[7V3N]

dp

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 05 June 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[sumpthy]

Holafernando Torres, on 05 June 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Yes, the Faith originated in hte Hills of Andalos which is on the complete opposite side of the continent from Volantus where Talasia is from. Not only that, but the religion is not even practiced there much at all because the region is almost abandoned as all of the Andals migrated to Westeros,

So, What's your point?

That the Faith of the Seven isn't a Westerosi religion.

[dtones520]

The Shadow Fox, on 05 June 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Read on my friend. I specified that a Lord could do that. But not a King. Especially given Robb's situation as the first King in the North in nearly 300 years.

So, hey, cool another person completely ignoring the fact that selective attention just doesn't work.



Read on


And I didn't even mention how Ned needed Hoster Tully's men. Perhaps if he wasn't desperate for support, he would have had a marriage on his own terms. It is assumed Ned married Cat to be honorable, but it very easily could have just been for Tully support in the war.

You hadn't posted that when I replied. And you make a good point, but explain this to me, how do you think Robb's wedding went in the books? Remember that he got married in the Crag, the Westerlings follow the Seven, there are little to no Weirwoods in the South. So, tell me how book Robb's wedding would have differed from show Robb's. I'm interested in your thoughts.

And sorry about the comment earlier.

[AmanoJacu]

dtones520, on 05 June 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Ned got married in Riverrun's Sept.

I was going to say the exact same thing, but just as I suspected somebody beat me to it.

Deal with it, it makes perfect sense for Robb to get married in a sept, according to the scenario. In the books, most likely the marriage between Robb and Jeyne Westerling was also in a sept. And if Robb had married a Frey as he promised, it would have been in a sept as well unless they had celebrated it at Winterfell.

The fact that he was King of the North might have played a role in marrying in a weirwood to the Old Gods, if and only if it had been an official wedding with all the northern bannermen present and a big feast with no regrets etc. etc,; and not a secret wedding with no guests at all that is going to cost him his allies, his crown and his own life.

Edited by AmanoJacu, 05 June 2012 - 04:16 PM.

[Tenlaar]

The Shadow Fox, on 05 June 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Read on my friend. I specified that a Lord could do that. But not a King. Especially given Robb's situation as the first King in the North in nearly 300 years.

And what proof is there of this?  Any at all?  One single shred?

The proof that is available is that the lords of the north greatly respected, willingly followed, and would willingly give their lives for a man who was married in a sept.  In the south.  To a southern woman who followed the seven.  And had a sept in his home.  And had his children raised with both of the religions in their lives.

[7V3N]

dtones520, on 05 June 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

how do you think Robb's wedding went in the books? Remember that he got married in the Crag, the Westerlings follow the Seven, there are little to no Weirwoods in the South. So, tell me how book Robb's wedding would have differed from show Robb's. I'm interested in your thoughts.

There are more than people think. Every major town North of the Red Mountains has one, except for KL (has a large oak in the godswood), the Eyrie (they tried and failed to plant one) and Storm's End (Melisandre burned it). Highgarden is unconfirmed. There are also smaller families like the Blackwoods (although theirs is dead) that have heart trees. Not to mention there are godswoods without heart trees that still are used for the same purpose.

[Howdyphillip]

sumpthy, on 05 June 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

That the Faith of the Seven isn't a Westerosi religion.

Then your point would be wrong considering for millenniums the seat of power for that religion was in Oldtown, and then the Targaryens took it up 300 years before the series and moved it to King's Landing. It is a religion almost exclusively followed by the people of Westeros, and would not be a religion from someone from Volantus.

[DornishREDhotmama]

i don't think the tv-alone watchers would even catch this!!!!  omg, all you people whining is ridiculous.  there is a book and there is a tv show.  two separate entities. get over the fact that grrm signed over the rights for a big bag of money-he sold out.  sorry, but he did.  and yes we (the book readers) are suffering for it.

[Howdyphillip]

DornishREDhotmama, on 05 June 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

i don't think the tv-alone watchers would even catch this!!!!  omg, all you people whining is ridiculous.  there is a book and there is a tv show.  two separate entities. get over the fact that grrm signed over the rights for a big bag of money-he sold out.  sorry, but he did.  and yes we (the book readers) are suffering for it.

You are not understanding the complaint... The TV show has written a scene that goes against its own writing. This has absolutely nothing to do with what is written in the books. I'm glad this doesn't bug you, but it bothers the hell out of me. Now, would you like to discuss what you do or do not like, or do you just want to complain about the discussion?

[A Bear covered in Fluff]

Kernest, on 04 June 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

This might be slightly off topic, but since it's mostly about religion: Didn't Jaqen talk about the "red god" demanding the names from Arya, meaning R'hlor rather than the Many Faced god? This would mean the Faceless Men are "pawns" of R'hlor which I find much more unacceptable than Robb being married in the wrong manner.

He says it in the book too also if you read the parts about the many faced god.. the name itself pretty much sums it up. there is one god he has many faces, some call him Rh'llor or the other some call aspects of him the seven. all are still the same god but of course he has many parts to him.

in all honest GRRM is the many-faced god, Why? because he creates so many faces for us to believe in

Edited by DontCallMeLadyFluff, 05 June 2012 - 04:57 PM.

[Morrigan]

dtones520, on 05 June 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Hey genius, Ned got married in Riverrun's Sept.

People keep repeating this as if it were a good refutation. Have you people thought it through at all?  Ned got married in a sept... to Catelyn Tully. In Riverrun. A woman of the riverlands, where they practice the faith of the Seven. Ned, as we know from the very first Catelyn chapter (and the 2nd chapter of the first book), is very accommodating of his wife, and he had a small sept built for her at Winterfell.

Now why exactly is Ned, being married in the sept of Riverrun to his Seven-worshipping southern Westerosi wife, an argument for the King in the North who is marrying a Volantene? Maybe if Robb was just the Lord of Winterfell and not the King in the North ("even their gods are wrong!"), and maybe if his wife were a Seven worshipper, then I'd concede the point. But they worship Rh'llor in Volantis. They like Rh'llor so much that there's even a temple to him that's bigger than the Great Sept of Baelor from King's Landing. It's not 100% impossible that there are some Volantene who keep the Seven (just as there are, say, Christian minorities in Muslim countries and vice-versa), but it's unlikely.

It'd be like seeing a white Scottish man (known for coming from a very Christian culture) marrying an Arabic Muslim woman in a... Buddhist temple. Wat.

Not to mention, even for a wedding done in the rites of the Seven, it was wrong. No cloak exchange, and the exchange of vows was different. So there. (I didn't really care about that, but I did think the way they showed in the show, with the two reciting the same vows at the same time, sounded horribly cheesy. YMMV.)

sumpthy, on 05 June 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

No it isn't. The Faith of the Seven comes from Essos.

Yeah, thousands of years ago from the Andals... the Faith of the Seven hasn't been popular in Essos for quite a while.

Edited by Morrigan, 06 June 2012 - 12:37 AM.

[Ghost Rider]

The Black Wolf, on 05 June 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

My main problem is not how the wedding was performed. (...)

My problem is why the wedding was performed. I already pointed it out in the general discussion thread for this episode, but Robb is acting like a totally selfish brat. (...) Talisa brings absolutely nothing. This marriage would be an even more grievous insult to the Freys than the one with a Westerling... and in this case there aren’t nearly as many excuses that you could possibly make for Robb’s behaviour.

Yeah, I really cannot understand why everybody seems so hung up about the ceremony. I was outraged at the wedding itself taking part! Or rather that they gave no reasons for it. They have fallen in love with each other. Fine. But why marry? Even today not everybody marries instantly after falling in love with another person.

And why the hurry? In the books the reasoning is understandable, even if skewed. Jeyne is an innocent, noble virgin who stands a lot to lose by loss of her virginity. Talisa? Obviously not a young girl, but a woman grown and a camp follower to boot. Anyway nowhere was it mentioned, that she was even supposed to be a virgin with her honour at stake.

Even given the premise that they want to marry just for love, why not wait until Robb has won the war? That wouldn't be honourable of course as he would basically cheat the Freys out of the contract, but his behaviour is far from honourable anyway. After Robb wins the war, he can do whatever he wants to. Should he lose, nobody will ask for him or his heirs anyway. He's in for a all or nothing.

So what exactly does he gain by the marriage? For me his behaviour is absolutely irrational and in no way am I able to rationalize it. I just don't get it.

[The Third Reed]

Morrigan, on 06 June 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

People keep repeating this as if it were a good refutation. Have you people thought it through at all?  Ned got married in a sept... to Catelyn Tully. In Riverrun. A woman of the riverlands, where they practice the faith of the Seven. Ned, as we know from the very first Catelyn chapter (and the 2nd chapter of the first book), is very accommodating of his wife, and he had a small sept built for her at Winterfell.

Now why exactly is Ned, being married in the sept of Riverrun to his Seven-worshipping southern Westerosi wife, an argument for the King in the North who is marrying a Volantene? Maybe if Robb was just the Lord of Winterfell and not the King in the North ("even their gods are wrong!"), and maybe if his wife were a Seven worshipper, then I'd concede the point. But they worship Rh'llor in Volantis. They like Rh'llor so much that there's even a temple to him that's bigger than the Great Sept of Baelor from King's Landing. It's not 100% impossible that there are some Volantene who keep the Seven (just as there are, say, Christian minorities in Muslim countries and vice-versa), but it's unlikely.

It'd be like seeing a white Scottish man (known for coming from a very Christian culture) marrying an Arabic Muslim woman in a... Buddhist temple. Wat.

Not to mention, even for a wedding done in the rites of the Seven, it was wrong. No cloak exchange, and the exchange of vows was different. So there. (I didn't really care about that, but I did think the way they showed in the show, with the two reciting the same vows at the same time, sounded horribly cheesy. YMMV.)

Yeah, thousands of years ago from the Andals... the Faith of the Seven hasn't been popular in Essos for quite a while.

Stop making me like your posts.

[Burt Clegane]

It's incredible how worked up some of you are. Surely it's completely irrelevant. A minor issue. Robb in the TV show is young, impulsive and quite clearly "married for love". Just because we've seen him pray occasionally that doesn't make him a religious fanatic.

You guys would look quite foolish if the religion factor went on to play a role in the Red Wedding betrayal.

[SerMixalot]

Ghost Rider, on 06 June 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

Yeah, I really cannot understand why everybody seems so hung up about the ceremony. I was outraged at the wedding itself taking part! Or rather that they gave no reasons for it. They have fallen in love with each other. Fine. But why marry? Even today not everybody marries instantly after falling in love with another person.

And why the hurry? In the books the reasoning is understandable, even if skewed. Jeyne is an innocent, noble virgin who stands a lot to lose by loss of her virginity. Talisa? Obviously not a young girl, but a woman grown and a camp follower to boot. Anyway nowhere was it mentioned, that she was even supposed to be a virgin with her honour at stake.

Even given the premise that they want to marry just for love, why not wait until Robb has won the war? That wouldn't be honourable of course as he would basically cheat the Freys out of the contract, but his behaviour is far from honourable anyway. After Robb wins the war, he can do whatever he wants to. Should he lose, nobody will ask for him or his heirs anyway. He's in for a all or nothing.

So what exactly does he gain by the marriage? For me his behaviour is absolutely irrational and in no way am I able to rationalize it. I just don't get it.

I guess the logic being is to get him with an heir before his bannermen kill him.

[Ferrous]

SerMixalot, on 06 June 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

I guess the logic being is to get him with an heir before his bannermen kill him.

He is a King.
He can legitimise his own bastards.

His bannermen and even Walder wouldn't care if he fathered a bastard on Talisa.

[Ghost Rider]

SerMixalot, on 06 June 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

I guess the logic being is to get him with an heir before his bannermen kill him.

Robb? or the unborn heir? Or both? Because logically whoever betrays Robb, will also want to lay hands on the potential heir. Robb should know that the only way he can protect his family (including his beloved Talisa) is to win the war and he can't win the war without the support of the Freys and yes, those bridges. If he loses the war, he could have fathered a great many heirs, it wouldn't be much help, since they would be babies and could be killed.

Anyway, I was disappointed because we got virtually no reasons for the marriage. They leave me guessing and I can't come up with a convincing reason.

Never thought, that the show would inspire so much sympathy for the Boltons of all people!

[Thunderfist]

Ghost Rider, on 06 June 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

Never thought, that the show would inspire so much sympathy for the Boltons of all people!