350 replies to this topic

[Ferrous]

Ghost Rider, on 06 June 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

Robb? or the unborn heir? Or both? Because logically whoever betrays Robb, will also want to lay hands on the potential heir. Robb should know that the only way he can protect his family (including his beloved Talisa) is to win the war and he can't win the war without the support of the Freys and yes, those bridges. If he loses the war, he could have fathered a great many heirs, it wouldn't be much help, since they would be babies and could be killed.

Anyway, I was disappointed because we got virtually no reasons for the marriage. They leave me guessing and I can't come up with a convincing reason.

Never thought, that the show would inspire so much sympathy for the Boltons of all people!

Good old Boltons.

True Northmen who are still loyal to the old gods- whilst the heretic Starks marry in septs and nurse southron ambitions.

[Autopath]

I thought he was married by the septon because his mother keeps throwing "Your Father" in his face. Right before this scene, he snaps "Father's dead" at Cat. My impression was he got married by the septon as a show of defiance...his need to do his own thing and not be a slave to the man his father was.

[Burt Clegane]

There is no logic. He is a boy who has just fallen in love. He didn't care about his responsibilities. It's daft, but that's just life.

"I don't want to marry the Frey girl."

Simple. So he didn't. It's a human trait. It was a youthful act of defiance. He's a King, why can't he do what he wants? He knows his parents didn't have the true love marriage that he feels he could have with Tulisa.

It's something that the vast majority of people watching the show will understand and empathise with.

[dtones520]

Morrigan, on 06 June 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

People keep repeating this as if it were a good refutation. Have you people thought it through at all?  Ned got married in a sept... to Catelyn Tully. In Riverrun. A woman of the riverlands, where they practice the faith of the Seven. Ned, as we know from the very first Catelyn chapter (and the 2nd chapter of the first book), is very accommodating of his wife, and he had a small sept built for her at Winterfell.

Now why exactly is Ned, being married in the sept of Riverrun to his Seven-worshipping southern Westerosi wife, an argument for the King in the North who is marrying a Volantene? Maybe if Robb was just the Lord of Winterfell and not the King in the North ("even their gods are wrong!"), and maybe if his wife were a Seven worshipper, then I'd concede the point. But they worship Rh'llor in Volantis. They like Rh'llor so much that there's even a temple to him that's bigger than the Great Sept of Baelor from King's Landing. It's not 100% impossible that there are some Volantene who keep the Seven (just as there are, say, Christian minorities in Muslim countries and vice-versa), but it's unlikely.

It'd be like seeing a white Scottish man (known for coming from a very Christian culture) marrying an Arabic Muslim woman in a... Buddhist temple. Wat.

Not to mention, even for a wedding done in the rites of the Seven, it was wrong. No cloak exchange, and the exchange of vows was different. So there. (I didn't really care about that, but I did think the way they showed in the show, with the two reciting the same vows at the same time, sounded horribly cheesy. YMMV.)

Yeah, thousands of years ago from the Andals... the Faith of the Seven hasn't been popular in Essos for quite a while.

So, you are assuming that Talisa worships Rhollor. No where in the show is that mentioned, maybe when she came to Westeros she converted to the Seven? We don't really know anything about her, other than that she says she's from Volantis and that she acts kind of shady at times.

As for th point about Ned, it is an argument because it's Robb's father. Someone who Robb models himself after, or tries to. So, he looks at it and rationalizes his getting married by a septon because his ad got married in a Sept, by a Septon. It was a rush job wedding. But it was performed at night, in front of a big ass tree, probably in a Godswood.

The vows were cheesy, I agree, but most wedding vows are pretty cheesy. Heck the whole exchanging of cloaks thing is cheesy as hell. Plus that is a highborn wedding tradition, basically saying "we are joining our houses". I'm guessing that normal weddings, not between noble houses don't have the cloak exchange. They probably have a septon saying some things and say some cheesy ass vow.

[The Third Reed]

Burt Clegane, on 06 June 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

There is no logic. He is a boy who has just fallen in love. He didn't care about his responsibilities. It's daft, but that's just life.

"I don't want to marry the Frey girl."

Simple. So he didn't. It's a human trait. It was a youthful act of defiance. He's a King, why can't he do what he wants? He knows his parents didn't have the true love marriage that he feels he could have with Tulisa.

It's something that the vast majority of people watching the show will understand and empathise with.

We're not meant to empathise with Robb.

Sheesh, how many times do I have to say this. Robb is the newly appointed teenage king of a large army trying to avenge the death of his father in a feudal society where more often than not brides and grooms are simply chosen for young men and women. We cannot empathise with this, because none of us thankfully live in such a society nowadays.

Yet you're telling me that we seemingly can and are supposed to empathise with Robb throwing his toys out of the pram and endangering tens of thousands of lives simply because he wants something? No. That is not something worth empathising with and it's not something Robb would do, especially given that this is a war he started to try and save/avenge the father whose character and honesty he revered.

Book Robb is a sympathetic character, and was also man enough to admit his mistakes (that isn't to say I don't think he loved Jeyne, I believe he did, but he clearly regretted deflowering her without her being wed, which is why he married her, and his conversations with Catelyn show that he did to an extent regret the decision he made, which alienated him from the Freys). Show Robb is a petulant child with a raging boner.

At this point I would fully support a Catelyn slapping Robb scene, and someone telling Robb that when the war is ended, he can spend a "gapyah" down in Dorne, where the women are just as exotic as Talisa and live in a society where women have more rights, so they're, like, totally empowered.

Edited by The Third Reed, 06 June 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[Burt Clegane]

..his father, that as far as he knows, cheated on his mother at least once?

I always found the idea that Book Robb, on finding out his two brothers had been killed and his home town had been burnt to the ground, was in the mood to have sex at all. In the show at least it's simply young love and passion taking over....something most people can empathise with.

[Lord Varys]

The Robb subplot brilliantly succeeds in showing why aging up Robb Stark and changing the Westerling subplot to this travesty of a love story completely sucks.

How the thing works in the books:

1. Even a 15-year-old Robb Stark only ended up marrying Jeyne Westerling because Lady Sybelle and Rolph Spicer played the honor card. And even this young Robb Stark only ended up sleeping with Jeyne because he was hurt physically (arrow wound) and emotionally (news about the death of his two brothers).

2. Marrying Jeyne has to have been a rather hasty and unreflected decision. The Freys were with Robb at the Crag, after all. If Robb asked anyone for counsel about this matter (say, for instance, his great-uncle the Blackfish, or the Greatjon) they would have talked him out of it, and the Freys would have heard about his plans in time. It very much seems as if Robb had presented his lords bannermen with his new queen after they had already been married (remember, Black Walder Frey told Robb that his sisters/cousins would not mind marrying a widower - the Freys only heard about after the thing was done). This strongly indicates that Robb was somewhat isolated from his men while being treated at the Crag. Even he would have realized that marrying Jeyne was a very bad idea had he properly thought the consequences through.
After all, it's evident later on that Robb realizes that this was a very bad decision. He loves Jeyne, but he is not stupid enough to deny that it would have been better for him, his family, and his cause if he had not married her.

Why a Robb love story could not possibly have worked in the TV show:

1. Richard Madden's Robb is not a 15-year-old boy. Book Robb may have kissed girls before he met Jeyne, but he most likely never was genuine in love with a noble girl before. Jeyne was his first love, and this made him irrational. Richard Madden's Robb surely was in love before he met Talisa, so this could not possible be a first time romance.

2. Robb Stark would never have fallen for an impoverished exotic noble-born camp follower. This is a fact. His whole upbringing would not enable him to fall in love with a woman whose personality has virtually nothing to do with the way (noble) women behave and talk in the world of Westeros. They would never have met, nor would they have talked to each other the way Robb ended up talking to her. Robb Stark would never have been aroused by a completely boring story about a boy nearly drowning in the Rhoyne. I'd go as far as saying that no sane man would be seduced by this kind of story ;-).

3. Even if they had stuck to the whole Westerling plot and the rash decision - it would have been difficult to sell to the audience with an elder Robb (the only way I can think it right would have been if they had made a strong point about Robb's honor all the time, and then made Lady Sybelle and Ser Rolph catch him while deflowering precious Jeyne - a cut from that shot directly to the wedding would have worked in a funny way, with Robb complaining afterwards about 'What was I supposed to do?'), but it completely sucks character-wise if they are actually discussing the whole topic and its consequences before the marriage happens. 'Alas, this is a dangerous thing to do, and it literally contradicts and distorts everything I should stand for as a king, and it might very well cause severe political repercussions for me in the immediate future, but I am in love, and I don't care if I live or die.'
The fact that there is no reason given why the wedding has to be right now (and not, say, after the war is won and the allegiance of House Frey truly nothing King Robb has to care much about) is but a minor annoying detail in this travesty of a story. I guess they don't address this point in the series, because they could not come up with a reason. The only reason why they married in the book was the fact that not marrying Jeyne would have dishonored her in front of her family.

[David Selig]

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1. Even a 15-year-old Robb Stark only ended up marrying Jeyne Westerling because Lady Sybelle and Rolph Spicer played the honor card.

It's possible, but I don't remember this specified anywhere in the books. Quote?

Quote

I'd go as far as saying that no sane man would be seduced by this kind of story ;-).

Come on, when a woman looks as good as Oona Chaplin, the story could've been even dumber and still would've worked on an awful lot of men.

[Lord Varys]

1. We have to guess about the 'arrangement' surrounding the actual marriage, of course. But it's quite clear that a lot of stuff here is weird. First there is Robb's arrow wound and the immediate surrender of the Crag afterwards. That was the beginning of the set-up (confirmed only by the fact that lowborn Rolph Spicer, Sybelle's brother and then-castellan of the Crag, was named Lord of Castamere by King Tommen). Robb states to Cat that he ended up being 'comforted' by Jeyne in the night he learned about Bran and Rickon's deaths. Considering that the Blackfish or the Greatjon did not prevent Robb from this foolish decision, I guess Sybelle and Rolph 'surprised' Robb and Jeyne while they were at it.

It's quite clear that Robb felt honor-bound to marry Jeyne afterwards, but I'm not sure he would truly have stuck to that decision if he would have not been directly confronted by Jeyne's family. After all, telling a girl you love her and actually marrying her are two completely different things, and Robb would have had time to change his mind would he have had the opportunity to think (or talk) it through...

2. Well, at least I'm not in sex mode 24 hours a day. And talking about the siblings or the childhood of my girlfriend (who actually looks better than Oona Chaplin ;-)) is not the best way to get me going. But, well, perhaps I'm weird...

[Jolene Brown]

For me, it would have made sense to play it offscreen on the show and keep the storyline the same as in the books.  He would only have to be absent for, like, two episodes, which makes it the perfect time to focus on the storyline surrounding Caitlyn's release of Jaime.  I think this is one of those things that works better when you don't see it and start thinking about the details too much.  Then we have several episodes before the RW to get invested in the relationship.  I feel like they over-thought this whole storyline too much and worried about how to "translate" it to TV when there was no real need to change it to make it work.  People are already into Brienne/Jaime - they've had, what, 10 minutes of screen time together?  Bring Robb back with his new bride, present his torment at having made an impossible decision between 2 kinds of honor, and if they have chemistry, people will get invested.

[Tenlaar]

Morrigan, on 06 June 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

People keep repeating this as if it were a good refutation. Have you people thought it through at all?  Ned got married in a sept... to Catelyn Tully. In Riverrun. A woman of the riverlands, where they practice the faith of the Seven. Ned, as we know from the very first Catelyn chapter (and the 2nd chapter of the first book), is very accommodating of his wife, and he had a small sept built for her at Winterfell.

The reason it is a good refutation is that it is the only evidence available.  There is no evidence that the northern lords would rebel against the king in the north because of how he got married, just opinions.  There is very clear evidence that the lords of the north continued to fully support, respect, and follow their liege lord after he was married in a sept to a southern woman who followed the seven.

[Noelle Snow]

Lord Varys, on 06 June 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

1. Richard Madden's Robb is not a 15-year-old boy. Book Robb may have kissed girls before he met Jeyne, but he most likely never was genuine in love with a noble girl before. Jeyne was his first love, and this made him irrational. Richard Madden's Robb surely was in love before he met Talisa, so this could not possible be a first time romance.

Actually there's no guarantee at all that Richard Madden's Robb had so much as had sex before much less been in love. Richard Madden himself said he felt Robb was a virgin. How many guys in life have had sex with a girl for the first time and then lost their damn mind over it? LOL

[Lord Varys]

Madden might feel his Robb was a virgin, but honestly, did the sex between him and Talisa look like he did not know what he was doing to you? Considering what Jon told Sam about Ros in season 1, it's much more obvious to me that Robb and Theon more than once visited Ros and her pretty friends at the brother outside of Winterfell.

That's where the boys had their first sexual experiences, and Jon only got second thoughts due to his bastard heritage.

Anyway, Madden's Robb is older. He should have his hormones/feelings better under control than 15-year-old book Robb.

[madman2711]

Where is the naked striping of the bride and groom
Umber would't miss it

[Buckwheat]

Lord Varys, on 06 June 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

Madden might feel his Robb was a virgin, but honestly, did the sex between him and Talisa look like he did not know what he was doing to you? Considering what Jon told Sam about Ros in season 1, it's much more obvious to me that Robb and Theon more than once visited Ros and her pretty friends at the brother outside of Winterfell.

That's where the boys had their first sexual experiences, and Jon only got second thoughts due to his bastard heritage.

Anyway, Madden's Robb is older. He should have his hormones/feelings better under control than 15-year-old book Robb.

Also, Talisa did not look like she did not know what she was doing as well. Their storx looks like it was taken from 21st century, which is not really how the society worked ... I would think most highborn girls acted much more shyly on the night of their deflowering than this.

[The Third Reed]

Burt Clegane, on 06 June 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

his father, that as far as he knows, cheated on his mother at least once

Which resulted in the birth of a "bastard" who, despite being treated with respect and a degree of love, was never really a true "Stark". Robb isn't blind, he would have seen this. Book Robb would subsequently refuse to father a bastard one feels, and makes his decision to marry Jeyne in the context of her now being a deflowered noblewoman from an already minor house who has "slept with the enemy".

Anyway, this is irrelevant because I'm talking about the reasons Robb began the war, namely to avenge his father. In the show he has now made a conscious decision to abandon his pledge to the Freys for nothing more than a piece of tail, which severely hampers his ability to do this. His emotional justification for endangering the war effort has been gutted.

Quote

I always found the idea that Book Robb, on finding out his two brothers had been killed and his home town had been burnt to the ground, was in the mood to have sex at all. In the show at least it's simply young love and passion taking over....something most people can empathise with.

We. Are. Not. Meant. To. Empathise. With. Robb.

[SerMixalot]

"Your being here encouraged them.  If a woman will behave like a camp follower, she cannot object to being treated like one.  A war host is no place for a maiden.  If you have any regard for your virtue or the honor of your House, you will ...return home..."

---Ser Randyll Tarley

Or as Boromir would have said

"Maidens do not simply walk around camp"

[dtones520]

The Third Reed, on 06 June 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Which resulted in the birth of a "bastard" who, despite being treated with respect and a degree of love, was never really a true "Stark". Robb isn't blind, he would have seen this. Book Robb would subsequently refuse to father a bastard one feels, and makes his decision to marry Jeyne in the context of her now being a deflowered noblewoman from an already minor house who has "slept with the enemy".

Anyway, this is irrelevant because I'm talking about the reasons Robb began the war, namely to avenge his father. In the show he has now made a conscious decision to abandon his pledge to the Freys for nothing more than a piece of tail, which severely hampers his ability to do this. His emotional justification for endangering the war effort has been gutted.



We. Are. Not. Meant. To. Empathise. With. Robb.

His emotional justification in the show is that he fell in love with a woman and wants to marry her because he loves her. He doesn't want to spend the rest of his life with a woman he has never met and isn't guaranteed to love because he needed some bridge. Catelyn and Ned falling in love despite their political marriage seems to be a pretty rare thing in this world. Robert and Cersei, Lysa and Jon Arryn, Stannis and Selyse, Rhaegar and Elia, etc, etc, etc.

Marrying a woman for love makes sense to a modern t.v. viewer, especially someone who watches HBO. Marrying someone because you took her maidenhead and felt honor bound to marry her because of that doesn't really make much sense to the average viewer. Especially when that hasn't been made a very big deal, other than it making the girl able to be married (Sansa).

[The Third Reed]

dtones520, on 06 June 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

His emotional justification in the show is that he fell in love with a woman and wants to marry her because he loves her. He doesn't want to spend the rest of his life with a woman he has never met and isn't guaranteed to love because he needed some bridge. Catelyn and Ned falling in love despite their political marriage seems to be a pretty rare thing in this world. Robert and Cersei, Lysa and Jon Arryn, Stannis and Selyse, Rhaegar and Elia, etc, etc, etc.

Irrelevant.

Quote

Marrying a woman for love makes sense to a modern t.v. viewer, especially someone who watches HBO.

I don't care. It's nonsensical for the reasons I have laboriously explained. I am not looking for empathy because I realise there is little to no empathy to be found in Robb's story.

I'll say it again. We are not meant to empathise with Robb Stark.

Quote

Marrying someone because you took her maidenhead and felt honor bound to marry her because of that doesn't really make much sense to the average viewer.

Yeah, I mean it's not like we saw three women hanged earlier in the episode for shagging Lannisters is it?

Or that Robb learned from his father, both in terms of his character and his "mistakes"

Or that bastardy, lineage and prestige are a vital part of what defines houses and individuals alike in GOT?

[7V3N]

The Third Reed, on 06 June 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

Hey, The Third Reed. Are we supposed to empathize with Robb Stark?