350 replies to this topic

[Castel]

Dio Forel, on 13 June 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Eh Robert had like 5,000,000 bastards and I am pretty sure a lot of the women were pretty common. Cersei had an affair with her twin brother, thats loyalty inspiring.  Joffrey is too asexual to break his vows for a common woman, although his actions dont exactly draw you in to want to follow him.  Ned had an affair as well.  I dont get how it matters if the woman is common or not.  Renly was kingish and was having affairs with men.  Targs had affairs with relatives.  Stannis is clearly having an affair with a red witch.  Lysa Arryn was hittin it with Littlefinger.  In those days just about everybody was sleeping around... whether it was with boys.. girls.. siblings.. animals who knows in this series.  I think the people in this thread care more for Robbs act of indiscretion than just about everybody (aside from Cat & Walder) else in the books.  Picture yourself being betrothed to a female Frey... I think anybody in their right mind would understand Robb goin elsewhere.  I wouldve too.

No one gives a shit about the affair, breaking one's word on a betrothal and alliance is the issue.No one else did that, except Joffrey, who had a whole song and dance to justify it.

[Dio Forel]

Castel, on 13 June 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

No one gives a shit about the affair, breaking one's word on a betrothal and alliance is the issue.No one else did that, except Joffrey, who had a whole song and dance to justify it.

Ah... I see.  So its okay to have blatant affairs when you are already bound by wedding vows in the eyes of the respective gods and the people.  Its okay to commit adultery when you have children already.  Its okay to commit adultery with your own family.  But a kid breaking a vow on a betrothal after hes basically gone through some of the most traumatic things anybody could ever go through...being forced into ruling/leading.. now THAT is a travesty and entirely shocking!

I bet if Robb married the Frey girl... then after they were married and had a kid.... then he cheated on the Frey girl with Talisa/Jeyne.  By your logic thatd be okay right?  The Freys would be cool with it... it would be acceptable tossing her to the side while Robb snuck out to sleep with another girl.  Because its not a betrothal, its an actual marriage.  So its okay there.  Damn Robb for not waiting until he was already married!  Again... needless to say that the basis of the books is it was a kid who made a dumb mistake.. they aged him up because on TV its more realistic to have a young adult sleeping around like that vs a young teen.  Its the same story they had to follow in essence... Why is it so shocking here?

[Castel]

Quote

I bet if Robb married the Frey girl... then after they were married and had a kid.... then he cheated on the Frey girl with Talisa/Jeyne.  By your logic thatd be okay right? The Freys would be cool with it... it would be acceptable tossing her to the side while Robb snuck out to sleep with another girl.  Because its not a betrothal, its an actual marriage.  So its okay there.  Damn Robb for not waiting until he was already married!  Again... needless to say that the basis of the books is it was a kid who made a dumb mistake.. they aged him up because on TV its more realistic to have a young adult sleeping around like that vs a young teen.  Its the same story they had to follow in essence... Why is it so shocking here?

Not my logic. In the books plenty of men cheated and it was accepted or brushed off. The number of men that break their betrothals or their sworn word on the other hand... The former don't appear at all apart from Robb and the latter are ridiculed. I'm not making a personal argument here so you attaching it to me and jumping on me is missing the point, Westerosi are willing to put up with a certain amount of whoring,, breaking a sworn word is something else.

Quote

Why is it so shocking here?

If you read my post you will notice a conspicuous absence of any mention of how shocking this plot twist is. In fact, the only thing in my post was there to point out that breaking one's word is a much bigger deal than adultery or sex before a marriage which may not even technically be a big deal.

EDIT: IN WESTEROS (just to avoid any misunderstandings)

Edited by Castel, 13 June 2012 - 11:49 PM.

[ChromeWeasel]

Dio Forel, on 13 June 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Ah... I see.  So its okay to have blatant affairs when you are already bound by wedding vows in the eyes of the respective gods and the people.  Its okay to commit adultery when you have children already.  Its okay to commit adultery with your own family.  But a kid breaking a vow on a betrothal after hes basically gone through some of the most traumatic things anybody could ever go through...being forced into ruling/leading.. now THAT is a travesty and entirely shocking!

I bet if Robb married the Frey girl... then after they were married and had a kid.... then he cheated on the Frey girl with Talisa/Jeyne.  By your logic thatd be okay right?  The Freys would be cool with it... it would be acceptable tossing her to the side while Robb snuck out to sleep with another girl.  Because its not a betrothal, its an actual marriage.  So its okay there.  Damn Robb for not waiting until he was already married!  Again... needless to say that the basis of the books is it was a kid who made a dumb mistake.. they aged him up because on TV its more realistic to have a young adult sleeping around like that vs a young teen.  Its the same story they had to follow in essence... Why is it so shocking here?

Marriage between the nobility of Westeros is about politics, not love. Young women are typically married off to men of any age in order to secure political integration between families. The occasional powerful woman will be married off to a younger man for the same reason.

'Cheating' on your fiance is not a big deal at all. Even cheating on your wife isn't a big deal, although it's not something that you want to advertise. You can't think of marriages between the Point of View characters as anything close to what we are used to today. That's not the way things worked in feudal society and it's not the way it works in Westeros.

To your example, the Freys as a family power wouldnt care too much about Robb cheating on his Frey wife after they got married, so long as the Frey bride is not overtly abused. Again, you don't get to choose who you marry in feudal nobility. You marry for politics and you have affairs for love. That goes both ways, although women have little clout and have to keep their indiscretions much quieter.

[Dio Forel]

ChromeWeasel, on 14 June 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Marriage between the nobility of Westeros is about politics, not love. Young women are typically married off to men of any age in order to secure political integration between families. The occasional powerful woman will be married off to a younger man for the same reason.

'Cheating' on your fiance is not a big deal at all. Even cheating on your wife isn't a big deal, although it's not something that you want to advertise. You can't think of marriages between the Point of View characters as anything close to what we are used to today. That's not the way things worked in feudal society and it's not the way it works in Westeros.

To your example, the Freys as a family power wouldnt care too much about Robb cheating on his Frey wife after they got married, so long as the Frey bride is not overtly abused. Again, you don't get to choose who you marry in feudal nobility. You marry for politics and you have affairs for love. That goes both ways, although women have little clout and have to keep their indiscretions much quieter.

Idk... maybe its just me.  I just feel like it wasn't exactly widely accepted Robb was a real king.  I mean yeah, great, among bannermen he is King.  But to everybody else in Westeros he was just another person fighting to be considered as such.  This is far from the typical scenario involving a King and his betrothed.  Its a boy called King by his peers, in essence,  thrust into politics and war unexpectedly and far from ready... forced by "allies" to marry a Frey to cross the bridge.  They still tried to make it up to the Freys where some nobility couldve been afforded to them.  Right now the only actual King is Joffrey (on TV at least).  Robb is a leader of an army at most.

Regardless... I do not say Robb was right.  I say he was flat out wrong and stupid.  But the bottom line is we arent dealing with somebody experienced enough to be held as accountable as a lot of people on here are saying.

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

I would say other than Joff that Robb is the only other real king. You say among his bannerman he was accepted as king. Well he is King of the North and everyone in the north has backed him so I would say that does make him king. Remember he isn't trying to be king of all of Westeros. So the opinions of everyone outside of the north hold little value. To take away his claim of King in the North anyone would have to fight and defeat him and most everyone in the north. Of which you could say for any "real king".

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

Castel, on 13 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Not my logic. In the books plenty of men cheated and it was accepted or brushed off. The number of men that break their betrothals or their sworn word on the other hand... The former don't appear at all apart from Robb and the latter are ridiculed. I'm not making a personal argument here so you attaching it to me and jumping on me is missing the point, Westerosi are willing to put up with a certain amount of whoring,, breaking a sworn word is something

Frey had bastard after bastard and Robb is king so him sleeping with any girl he wanted would be acceptable to Frey as long as he married the Frey. Your absolutly correct!

[Ghost Rider]

Castel, on 13 June 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

No doubt. I'm saying that breaking one's word for a common woman will not make you look like a good potential alliance. No other king in the series did this, even Joffrey had to have some sort of performance excusing him.

Jofferey was promised to the daughter of a "traitor" who didn't offer any political benefit (anymore). Him switching to Margaery Tyrell was a much better choice in political terms (not his decision of course ). So that's hardly a comparable situation. Robb marrying a common woman otoh, it's really hard to justify. Love and marriage are just not associated in the mind of people having to live in the world of ASOIAF. Even Book!Robb who was a 16 year old boy didn't try to use this particular excuse for his actions.

[bikie]

have to agree with castel... the westeros attitude towards adultery is that it's almost expected, especially in certain circumstances (war being a big one), and a husband's dealings with his wife is none of anyone's business (to a certain degree, certainly with regards to adultery), but breaking a political and allied oath is severe and unforgivable...

[Dementia]

Book:  I don't understand why some think Robb heard his brothers were dead then immediately jumped Jeyne.  Wasn't he at the Crag for weeks?  Is there a line or something I'm forgetting?

[David Selig]

^Yes, there is:

Quote

Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon.” He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers’ names. “That night, she . . . she comforted me, Mother.”

[ChromeWeasel]

Dio Forel, on 14 June 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Idk... maybe its just me.  I just feel like it wasn't exactly widely accepted Robb was a real king.  I mean yeah, great, among bannermen he is King.  But to everybody else in Westeros he was just another person fighting to be considered as such.  This is far from the typical scenario involving a King and his betrothed.  Its a boy called King by his peers, in essence,  thrust into politics and war unexpectedly and far from ready... forced by "allies" to marry a Frey to cross the bridge.  They still tried to make it up to the Freys where some nobility couldve been afforded to them.  Right now the only actual King is Joffrey (on TV at least).  Robb is a leader of an army at most.

Regardless... I do not say Robb was right.  I say he was flat out wrong and stupid.  But the bottom line is we arent dealing with somebody experienced enough to be held as accountable as a lot of people on here are saying.

It's not about whether he is king or not. ANY nobleman or woman should understand that marriages are done for political purposes. Robb's mother makes this clear to us in the show. Sansa knows this growing up. She's going to be married off to someone. She just hopes that he's powerful and handsome. But she doesnt have much choice in the matter. Even Cersei knows that this is the way things works. She's resentful of it and she berates Tyrion for it, but this is reality for the nobility in feudal society.

Love and marriage are TOTALLY different things for these people. Robb acted very selfishly and very disrespectfully to the Frey's with his action. You have to think of marriages as treaties. Robb got to cross the Frey's river with all his men, and the Frey's even gave him their own soldiers as well. In return Robb swore to marry the Freys into the Starks, which would elevate the Frey house overall. Walder Frey takes a big gamble that Robb could win. it doesn't look likely at the time, and Robb is a rebel. But in the long run, if everyone survives and Robb wins, the Freys have a claim to the throne of the north. And Robb has a much better chance of winning with the Frey support. In reality it's impossible for Robb to win without them.

Robb broke his word on that treaty, which is bad enough. Walder is insulted. But the worst part is that there's no way for Robb to pay back the Freys at that point. Walder had the possibility of a Frey being queen in the north. Now that Robb is married that's impossible. There's just no way for Robb to make up for what he did, or pay back his mistake.

[Dio Forel]

bikie, on 15 June 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

have to agree with castel... the westeros attitude towards adultery is that it's almost expected, especially in certain circumstances (war being a big one), and a husband's dealings with his wife is none of anyone's business (to a certain degree, certainly with regards to adultery), but breaking a political and allied oath is severe and unforgivable...

Severe?  Yes.  Unforgivable?  Yes.  Worthy of a complex scheme to wipe out an entire family & friends at a staged wedding massacre?  No.

Obviously to the Freys & Lannisters & Boltons this was the right move (well that and the Freys were promised absolute protection by the Lannisters)... But in the books they were plotting againt Robb together.  Clearly your logic is flawed because Robb still had people on his side that forgave him, fought for him and defended him.  He made a mistake,  a horrible one that had overwhelmingly damaging repercussions.  But had the Lannisters/Boltons & Co. not been behind the scenes playing puppeteers to orchestrate the entire scheme it would absolutely not have happened like that.  

The revenge wasnt in any way honorable.  A fake assassin band during a wedding?  Unacceptable regardless of what happened.  There was no honor in any of this.  Chopping Mormont's daughter in the midsection with an axe as she goes to leave the room, this is justified?  They killed them all off like cowards.  If Robb was mature and experienced enough to understand the game he might have kept it in his pants.  Things did not go down as they would in a typical response to the breaking of a vow.  

And it wasnt even a formal betrothal as it would be in those times with a ceremony or some sort of official declaration.  In those times a betrothal could be forfeited by either side... the penalty would be financial... or forfeiting a gift/dowry (of course there was no ceremony in this case).  So if we are going to use real-life references here you actually back up my point more.  The expected reaction to a breaking of a betrothal would be financial and it happened quite often.  Thats why there would be the whole ceremony for a betrothal with vows and dowries.  Betrothals could be broken by either side, and the known/accepted penalty was absolutely not a massacre.  Robb was just too naive and stupid to understand that this is more the Game he is involved in so normal repercussions do not apply.  There is a lot of irony within that since he is trying to distance himself from his father as a person.  His father was murdered because he did not understand the Game and how serious the repercussions were.  Robb died for the same thing.  Ned sighed and thought okay I will renounce my honor and take the black... the look on his face showed everything that he thought he knew about the rules did not exist and he lost the Game for it.  

Robb is not a player in the Game, no matter who he tries to be.  His demise was not justified.  The reaction to his breaking his betrothal was not typical or acceptable.  Setting up a wedding and inviting Robb to show it as an act of forgiveness, then breaking all of those words and killing them was deplorable.  Robb did absolutely apologize for what he did once he arrived since he knew it was wrong (so who said no remorse?) and then they were granted guest rights.  Breaking that right was even more dishonorable, the acts of a person being controlled by an ongoing scheme to destroy the Northern Alliance.  There were even several Freys that didnt show up to the Red Wedding because they knew what was to happen was disgusting and sympathized with Robb and his cause.  

And if this whole debacle was so acceptable and justified... why not just tell it how it really happened when telling the tale?  If it was so understandable by all the repercussions for Robbs actions.. wouldnt that have been the story that was told?  Robb broke his betrothal to the Freys so they avenged their honor right?  Shouldnt that have been the tale (although there was clearly no honor here)?  The story that was passed around was that Robb transformed into a wolf and savagely murdered Jinglebell then the other Northmen turned into wolves also and attacked.  Theres a reason people lie, its because the truth is damning.  So I stand by my point.  The Freys themselves even knew it was wrong hence their lie about it and having several of their own family not show up.  The Freys couldve told him they would not forgive the slight and retracted their end of the bargain.  That wouldve been acceptable and deserved.  Tricking them into a wedding under the false pretense of forgiveness then giving guest rights is shady, nothing more.  But in their defense.... it never wouldve happened without the Freys being pawns to the Lannister/Bolton/Spycer game.  The Game is what led to the massacre... not accepted definitions for honor and politics.

Edited by Dio Forel, 15 June 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[Dementia]

David Selig, on 15 June 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

^Yes, there is:

Ah ha!  Thank you.

[ChromeWeasel]

Dio Forel, on 15 June 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

...

You seem to be equating the red wedding with Robb's breaking his contract with the Freys. I don't see anyone arguing that the Starks deserved to be murdered at the red wedding because of Robb's mistake. The point in the last few posts is simply that it was a big deal to break that political marriage. It's far more significant than just cheating on your wife.

I certainly didnt expect the red wedding, although I wouldnt have been too surprised if the Freys captured all the Starks and turned them over to the Lannisters as political prisoners. That would have been more appropriate, and probably a better long term plan for the Freys as well. Now the Freys are cursed as bloodthirsty oathbreakers.

[Castel]

Quote

You seem to be equating the red wedding with Robb's breaking his contract with the Freys. I don't see anyone arguing that the Starks deserved to be murdered at the red wedding because of Robb's mistake. The point in the last few posts is simply that it was a big deal to break that political marriage. It's far more significant than just cheating on your wife.

Exactly. I'm baffled by this sudden shifting of the goalposts.

[Dio Forel]

ChromeWeasel, on 15 June 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

You seem to be equating the red wedding with Robb's breaking his contract with the Freys. I don't see anyone arguing that the Starks deserved to be murdered at the red wedding because of Robb's mistake. The point in the last few posts is simply that it was a big deal to break that political marriage. It's far more significant than just cheating on your wife.

I certainly didnt expect the red wedding, although I wouldnt have been too surprised if the Freys captured all the Starks and turned them over to the Lannisters as political prisoners. That would have been more appropriate, and probably a better long term plan for the Freys as well. Now the Freys are cursed as bloodthirsty oathbreakers.

Castel, on 15 June 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Exactly. I'm baffled by this sudden shifting of the goalposts.

My point is... breaking contracts/engagements was actually common and allowed... Each side has the full choice to back out.  It really isnt that big a deal in those times.  If you did it,  it just cost you financially.  It really didnt damage the morale or the allegiance of his bannermen by doing it.  Only the Freys and the Boltons.  The Red Wedding is definitely relevant in my point because you guys are acting like Robbs actions were so bad that it ended up killing so many people.  Did you not say that?  It might not have been you it may have been the other guy SerMixALot.  But your points are implying it was so bad what he did.  Bottom line is it was stupid but not a big deal.  The Lannisters just blew it up to be a big deal so it could help them to manipulate the situation to benefit them in the war, which in the end it did.  If you even look up betrothals in medieval & feudal times.... it describes them as semi-binding contracts that either party is able to back out of at any time.

[s_Xi]

Castel, on 13 June 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Indeed it will.

I don't think so. His reputation will be shaken but not destroyed.

A betrothal was a semi-binding contract and at that time marriage promises were made and broken frequently depending on self-interests. Whatever his interests were, Robb wasn't the first one and for sure not the last one to do something like that.

And if you add the fact that no one really wanted the Freys to be linked to the crown the problem for Robb's men isn't going to be the broken promise per se but that they actually need the Freys for the war.

So they undoubtedly will be puzzled and angry but they will not lose respect for him just because he made a mistake. The bond with the majority of his men is stronger than that.

Quote

And keep in mind that Robb is a rebel, if he ever needed alliances people will know that he's changeable and driven by lust/love.

You mean that they will realize that a young man is reckless and that practically like every single person (kings included) in the world he has had a moment of weakness? What about all his strengths? They will not count  for possible alliances?  

At the end what he will do now, how he's going to manage the situation will determine what they will think of him.

Lord Over, on 13 June 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Book Robb at least shows regret and tries to lessen the fallout of his mistake because he realizes what a grave insult to break your vows so openly. Why bother 'tricking' Catleyn if there was nothing to be ashamed of and 'I lowv her'?

He showed regret when? How much time after his wedding? How much time passed before he realized the real implications of his mistake?

We didn't saw b!Robb the day he decided to marry her and how he acted with his men. Was he sorry and regretful or just determinate to do the "honorable" thing no matter what as s!Robb was determinate to follow his heart (and IMO do the honorable thing to marry a girl he respect and doesn't want to use as a mistress)?

Give him the time to actually realize what he has done and you will see his regret .

Quote

TV-Robb might as well take a mic and start going all Eminem "Fuck all of you, fuck you if doubt me, I'mma sex this foreign low-born woman and I'll say it proudly!".

oh gosh I actually pictured that.

Edited by s_Xi, 15 June 2012 - 08:26 PM.

[DurararaFTW]

Dio Forel, on 15 June 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

My point is... breaking contracts/engagements was actually common and allowed... Each side has the full choice to back out.  It really isnt that big a deal in those times.  If you did it,  it just cost you financially.  It really didnt damage the morale or the allegiance of his bannermen by doing it.  Only the Freys and the Boltons.  The Red Wedding is definitely relevant in my point because you guys are acting like Robbs actions were so bad that it ended up killing so many people.  Did you not say that?  It might not have been you it may have been the other guy SerMixALot.  But your points are implying it was so bad what he did.  Bottom line is it was stupid but not a big deal.  The Lannisters just blew it up to be a big deal so it could help them to manipulate the situation to benefit them in the war, which in the end it did.  If you even look up betrothals in medieval & feudal times.... it describes them as semi-binding contracts that either party is able to back out of at any time.

Walder Freys eldest son and heir already died for Robbs cause by the time Robb backed out on the terms that bought him their allegiance went down. The Freys were never gonna make common cause with them again, and Robb knew he needed the Twins to have any hope of taking Moat Cailin. So yeah, it is a big deal. Robb was freely giving up the North in exchange for one girls honour with that wedding.

[Sofokles]

I dont understand why they put a Volantene instead of Jeyne Westerling...