350 replies to this topic

[Castel]

Dio Forel, on 15 June 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

My point is... breaking contracts/engagements was actually common and allowed... Each side has the full choice to back out.  It really isnt that big a deal in those times.  If you did it,  it just cost you financially.  It really didnt damage the morale or the allegiance of his bannermen by doing it.  Only the Freys and the Boltons.  The Red Wedding is definitely relevant in my point because you guys are acting like Robbs actions were so bad that it ended up killing so many people.  Did you not say that?  It might not have been you it may have been the other guy SerMixALot.  But your points are implying it was so bad what he did.  Bottom line is it was stupid but not a big deal.  The Lannisters just blew it up to be a big deal so it could help them to manipulate the situation to benefit them in the war, which in the end it did.  If you even look up betrothals in medieval & feudal times.... it describes them as semi-binding contracts that either party is able to back out of at any time.

Please show me where this is stated in the series. Keep in mind this isn't a bare contract. This is an agreement to rebel and possibly lose everything and Robb pulled a bait and switch it is definitely a big deal, he basically got the food without paying for it. On top of that, as the show stands, Lord Walder is Robb's ally, not vassal. He can back out over this. And seeing as show!Robb has even fewer men than in the books, losing them would be very bad and risky for his war effort.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

I could not get over this, no matter how I tried to justify it. It just doesn't make any god damned sense. Robb was very adamant, as Starks are, in their worship of the Old Gods, and in Volantis either R'hllor or some other God from the House of Black and White. And also I cringed when Rickard Karstark said that he would offer his heart to the father if he could get his son back. They really messed that up, and its been established in the series that Northmen follow the Old Gods. This is either very lazy writing or just downright stupidity on part of the writers. Its a plothole that just keeps on growing.

[Masamune]

I truly hate what they did to Robb's story arc in the show. Why HBO? WHY!? I was liking Robb up until that point. He was a good guy. Then you turned him into a complete jackass. I could understand his character in the context of the books. He was a young boy who gave into a moment of weakness after his brother's "deaths" and followed his father's footsteps by placing honour before reason. It was a foolish move but at least it made sense! So how is it that on-screen Robb, who is decidedly older than 15, is portrayed as an even bigger child than his novel counterpart? He sleeps with this foreign bootay (okay not a problem) but then decides he wants to MARRY HER.... why? Because he's in wuv with this total stranger? Because he wants to defy mumsy? the whole thing, right down to the character of Talisa herself, is like something from a bad romcom. I'm actually looking forward to the Red Wedding now.

Edited by Masamune, 09 July 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[birdsong66]

Did the Starks deserve the RW?  No.  However, from a Frey/Bolton viewpoint, the easy conclusion to draw is that having formed a secret alliance with Tywin, each felt that their actions would be without consequence as Tywin is really running KL at that point in the story.  That they upped the ante and committed a full on massacre, despite a clear breach of guest right and custom, reflects exactly how secure both houses felt about their positions being under the canopy of Lannister "protection."

Ultimately, Tywin came off better than the Boltons, and specifically the Freys, despite his involvement, which, IIRC, hasn't really been illuminated.  Thus the trees are more frequently adorned with several Freys, some Boltons, and even fewer Lannister loyalists because Tywin was astute enough to arrange it as though his involvement was along the lines of "capture enemy combatants for hostages, and kill TKoTN," rather than "kill every enemy attendee, all of them to the last."

All of this is to point out the simple idea that if you believe you have the blessings of those "in charge," then every action taken subsequent is thought to have similar blessings, or will be condoned in like manner. In short, it frees you up from custom enough to imagine, develop, and partake in an egregious breach similar to, or exactly like, the RW.  There was no fear for/of Lannister reprisals.

Obviously, they were wrong in this assumption, but cie la vie in Westeros.

[Morrigan]

I recently rewatched the entire season, wondering if I'd be less annoyed at watching the "deviations". To be honest, it was even worse. Talisa is even more annoying and her whole modern feminist sob story is so ill-fitting and atrociously written, I think I'll just fast-forward all of her scenes next time. It's just so silly when she just struts in Robb's tent, interrupting war councils and whatnot, just to say "...how are you, Your Grace?". Derp writers are derp. And the wedding was painfully cheesy, with them reciting those cringe-worthy lines (aimed at the Seven, no less, which is the religion of neither of them) in unison. Eww.

Harrad, on 09 June 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

All the major characters get point of view (POV) chapters. GRRM thinks so little of Robb Stark that he doesnt bother with him. At least Robb gets face time on HBO. He pretty much is the same character as in the book. Any difference one thinks there is in the book is a product of ones on imagination, not what GRRM wrote.

Wait what. That takes the cake for the worst kind of argument ever posted here, I think. By this logic, Areo Hotah is a more important character to the story than Varys, the Hound, Littlefinger, Robert Baratheon, Khal Drogo, Joffrey, Lysa Arryn, or Stannis. Herpity derpity derp. You haven't thought this through, have you.

[Myrcella]

Note that the books also make this mistake quite frequently, especially with the Ironmen.
Balon Greyjoy said: "No man is as accursed in the eyes of GODS and men as the kinslayer." while we know that he's a devout Drowned God worshipper. I don't think he would have included the Storm God, seeing as how antagonized he is.

Edited by Myrcella, 25 August 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[65536ob]

Bride of Winter, on 04 June 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

the writers are idiots. That's my reason. I excused Karstark mentioning the mother, but there's no way I'll take any excuse for the KING IN THE NORTH marrying in the name of the Seven.

It's entirely possible that some northeners follow the faith of the seven, Robb's mother is a tully it's possible she could have raised him in the faith of the seven. Also Talissa/Jeyne could be a believer in the faith of the seven and he could be marrying her with the faith of the seven for her benefit.

[King Tommen]

Is this still being argued about? It's so inconsequential a detail and yet still some people are upset?  Get a life.

Not that I really care about that particular minor point but I could give a number of plausible explanations.  Here's one off the top of my head:  They want to conduct a secret, quickie marriage away from prying eyes.  They're in the Riverlands (away from the North where those who worship the Old Gods reside) so the only local priest they could get to perform the ceremony on short notice without raising any alarm was a priest of the Seven. There. Happy?

[Kasrith]

drigoly, on 04 June 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

because they don't want to confuse the in their opinion stupid tv-viewers with 3 religions... so everyone on westeros beliefs in the faith of the seven and Stannis has R'hlor

Um except we get a taste of how important the Old Gods are starting way back in 1.1 with Ned sitting below the tree...
And then of course there's the Drowned God

Versiroth, on 04 June 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

And yet he didn't care that his daughter followed the seven?

That one makes sense, she is so clearly her mother's daughter. Has more south in her if anything, and especially since leaving the North I don't see how that would bother him. But his heir, and the King in the North? No way..

Edited by Kasrith, 21 January 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Honestly, I'm amazed that this topic lasted 18 pages (granted with a few twists and turns in there).

Robb's wedding being in the Faith of the Seven either only makes sense in the context of them being in the Westerlands at the time, or it is a complete continuity oversight by the show runners.  Given the nature of a few of the other similar continuity errors (Karstark's use of "Mother" and "Father", for instance), it's safe to guess the latter.  Kind of hard to have more to say about it than that, isn't it?

[StannisandDaeny]

Yeah it doesn't make much sense. If you completely ignore the books though (which they seem to have done), it might? I forgot who said it, but the phrase 'by the old gods and the new' does seem to appear a couple of times spoken by various speakers, I don't think they ever established the two religions all that well, save at the wall.

Damn you people now I'll have to rewatch season 1 and 2 entirely and just pay attention to this!

Edited by StannisandDaeny, 29 March 2013 - 02:47 PM.