350 replies to this topic

[I'm_Tim]

Kernest, on 04 June 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

This might be slightly off topic, but since it's mostly about religion: Didn't Jaqen talk about the "red god" demanding the names from Arya, meaning R'hlor rather than the Many Faced god? This would mean the Faceless Men are "pawns" of R'hlor which I find much more unacceptable than Robb being married in the wrong manner.

R'hlor is one facet of the Many Faced God, as are the Old Gods, the Seven and the Drowned God. That's the way I've always interpretted it.

[sumpthy]

Kernest, on 04 June 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

This might be slightly off topic, but since it's mostly about religion: Didn't Jaqen talk about the "red god" demanding the names from Arya, meaning R'hlor rather than the Many Faced god? This would mean the Faceless Men are "pawns" of R'hlor which I find much more unacceptable than Robb being married in the wrong manner.

It always makes me laugh when people make this nitpick seeing as Jaqen says the thing about the Red God word for word in the books. Arya saved Jaqen, Rorge and Biter from a fire, depriving R'hllor of three sacrifices. The men Jaqen killed are to make up for that.

As for Talisa, why does her being from Volantis mean she has to be a follower of R'hllor? Not everyone in Rome is Catholic. I have no doubt that Robb's wedding to Jeyne Westerling was conducted by a septon.

[lojzelote]

I truly hated this episode, but the Seven didn't bother me.

Remember, Book!Catelyn mentions in aGoT that she and Ned were married in the sept. She says nothing about weirwood.

But yeah, it's weird. I don't think it's a political blunder others made it out to be, but neither Robb or Talisa worship the Seven. Let's just say there was no weirwood around.

[Versiroth]

hk47, on 04 June 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

Do the writers even give a shit?  Honestly??  Is it THAT hard to get the religions straight???  Don't they have a asoiaf-fact genius or whatever with them on set??  What is going on??



They can totally compromise the story regardless of what GRRM is doing or says, or how involved he is.  He has ZERO veto power and the writers can do whatever they want.  Sure, they probably want to follow the book for the most part, but it's their baby (like GRRM has said himself) and they have shown us several times that they will do whatever the hell they want.  I really doubt GRRM would approve of Robb having a wedding in front of the Seven or a ton of other things that have happened in the show.  But they happen because he has no control over any of it.  I think some people are overestimating how much power GRRM has in the show.  He is a consultant...he gives feedback sometimes.  He writes one episode a season, but he is nothing compared to the power that D&D have in the show.  And he'll tell you that himself.

Well, regardless, they have not compromised anything at this point.   Jeyne was a follower of the 7 in the book series.   How do we know Robb didn't wed her  via a Septon in that as well?  Heck, D&D may have asked Martin and that may have been his answer.  It's not like there were a ton of heart trees down south.

[Castel]

lojzelote, on 04 June 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

I truly hated this episode, but the Seven didn't bother me.

Remember, Book!Catelyn mentions in aGoT that she and Ned were married in the sept. She says nothing about weirwood.

But yeah, it's weird. I don't think it's a political blunder others made it out to be, but neither Robb or Talisa worship the Seven. Let's just say there was no weirwood around.

Honestly this. I don't think that it matters much to the Northmen where they get married, but I think it does matter to the southrons. It's quite possible that they had their vows done at both sites.

[Christine K]

Holafernando Torres, on 04 June 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

I could forgive the Karstark reference to the father as something that would be said as a matter of every day speech and have nothing to do with his religion, but it is absolutely established that a huge reason that the North can unite is the worship of the old gods. This was a grievous error, and it took me away from the rest of the show.

What's this Karstark part that everyone is talking about? I don't think I was paying attention during this part or something.

And yeah, I thought it really weird that The King in the North would get married not in the sight of his own gods.

[Bearsblood8]

Versiroth, on 04 June 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

When they completely change something major, plot wise, that compromises the over all story (which would never happen as Martin is heavily involved), I'll agree with you guys.   But, the same things unfolding on screen in a slightly different way doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.   Robb will still be murdered, Jon will still become lord Commander of the nights watch, Tyrion will still murder his father, etc, etc.

Under this logic, ASOIAF would be just as enjoyable to read of as a series of bullet points.  GRRM could just lay out the plot points in a ten page list and we could check off the events as they occur.  To me, it's the world building around these poignant moments that matter.  In this sense, the show has left behind various pieces of Martin's world.  This is to be expected because the show is an adaptation; however, I feel the show's attitude towards various points (Robb's choices, Robb and Catelyn's relationship, revealing Littlefinger's support for Sansa early, white walkers ignoring Sam) all work to change the feel for the world that George created.

[sbjackdaw]

Versiroth, on 04 June 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

(which would never happen as Martin is heavily involved)

Martin's not as heavily involved as you think. Unfortunately, GRRM's role is purely advisory and symbolic. He writes one script a season and gets the fancy title "Co-Executive Producer" but is otherwise uninvolved.

Source is this interview from last season where GRRM says, and I quote:

Quote

You know, it's D&D, really. They are the showrunners. I don't have any veto power. I signed a pretty standard contract where I gave them the rights to adapt this into a television series and I got certain titles and agreed I'd write one script a year and a large dump truck full of money. And they can have the aliens come down next season. They can turn the whole cast into vampires. *And I'm powerless to stop them,* but I don't think they will do that.

[David Selig]

lojzelote, on 04 June 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

I truly hated this episode, but the Seven didn't bother me.

Remember, Book!Catelyn mentions in aGoT that she and Ned were married in the sept. She says nothing about weirwood.

But yeah, it's weird. I don't think it's a political blunder others made it out to be, but neither Robb or Talisa worship the Seven. Let's just say there was no weirwood around.

But Catelyn follows the Seven, so it makes a lot more sense for her and Ned to be married by a septon than Robb and Talisa (who most likely doesn't follow the Seven). Plus Catelyn was the daughter of a powerful Lord who could basically demand anything of Ned at this point since Ned really needed his army. Talisa is a nobody politically.

[Kernest]

Christine K, on 04 June 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

What's this Karstark part that everyone is talking about? I don't think I was paying attention during this part or something.

And yeah, I thought it really weird that The King in the North would get married not in the sight of his own gods.

When Jaime tried to escape, and then when Catelyn let him escape with Brienne, Lord Karstark (bearded old dude) makes a few references to the seven when talking about Jaime killing his son.

edit: If my memory serves me right it's established that of the Stark bannermen, Manderlys (White Harbor) follow the seven, while rest keep to the old gods. Individuals within houses could still probably keep different gods, or pray to both.

Edited by Kernest, 04 June 2012 - 12:31 PM.

[dtones520]

Why don't you guys rewatch the scene before complaining about it. Yes, they had a septon marry them, yes they said vows to the Seven, but the wedding sure as shit didn't happen in a sept. They were standing under a tree for gods sake, which makes me think that they were in a gods wood somewhere. They are in the Westerlands, if all you avid book readers remember there are very few Weirwoods in the south, so him not having it under a Weirwood is fine because there are none where he is. I'm pretty sure that book Robb didn't get married in front of a Weirwood, considering he got married in the Crag.

Also, Talisa's religion is never established. Yes, there are a lot of Rhollor worshipers in Volantis, but not everyone is. Maybe she took the Seven when she came to Westeros? The only thing establishing her religion is the wedding ceremony, so I'll assume she takes the Seven as her gods.

So what we have is a wedding with a septon overseeing it, them saying vows the the Seven, underneath a tree in the woods. To me, it looks like they took each others religion and combined them to make a wedding ceremony. Why is no one up in arms about GRRM having Ned and Catelyn get married in a sept? Seriously, this is no different than a Christian and a Jew combining both of their religions when they get married.

[sumpthy]

Kernest, on 04 June 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

When Jaime tried to escape, and then when Catelyn let him escape with Brienne, Lord Karstark (bearded old dude) makes a few references to the seven when talking about Jaime killing his son.

edit: If my memory serves me right it's established that of the Stark bannermen, Manderlys (White Harbor) follow the seven, while rest keep to the old gods. Individuals within houses could still probably keep different gods, or pray to both.

Individuals can certainly keep different gods if they choose to, Sansa Stark and presumably Jorah Mormont follow different gods to their families.

[dtones520]

Also, regarding Karstark, maybe it is a saying? Arya refers to the Seven Hells when she is lost under the Red Keep in the book, does that mean she is a forsaking the Old Gods? Nope. It's a friggin saying.

[K.C.]

I assume Ned and Cat were married in a sept because that's her religion. And it's absolutely true that Talisa's religion is never mentioned. It's likely that her family, an "old name" in Volantis, at least nominally worships the Lord of Light, but perhaps she gave that up when she decided to be Florence Nightingale.

The fact that it's said in front of a tree is why I intended this as a discussion thread rather than a nitpick. At least everyone else was as confused as I was.

[Morvran]

dtones520, on 04 June 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

So what we have is a wedding with a septon overseeing it, them saying vows the the Seven, underneath a tree in the woods. To me, it looks like they took each others religion and combined them to make a wedding ceremony. Why is no one up in arms about GRRM having Ned and Catelyn get married in a sept? Seriously, this is no different than a Christian and a Jew combining both of their religions when they get married.

C'mon, you don't believe this.  You know a Stark king would never swear to the Seven.  And you know that "a tree in the woods" is not a heart tree.  Robb is already very aware that he has gone back on his word and broken his vow to a man, do you really think he'd just go, "Eh, what's another broken vow?  I'll forsake the gods I believe in while I'm at it."  

At the very least it was a poor job of communicating intent on the part of the writer.  But most likely it was poor writing, and poor fact-checking.

[The Queen of Thorns]

Versiroth, on 04 June 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

It's no more annoying than people saying the show is garbage because of small details that no one but the most obsessed book readers would notice.   Nitpicks are fine and dandy.   But when nitpicks turn into "OMG, they ruined so and so's character completely!!" then some people have taken the nitpick to an extreme level.  

Try and argue they didnt ruin Jeyne Westerlings character completely!

[Kernest]

The Queen of Thorns, on 04 June 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Try and argue they didnt ruin Jeyne Westerlings character completely!

I think they didn't. Westerlings aren't really necessary to the story, as long as Robb married someone and RW happens before a heir is born to him. In the books Westerlings needed to be there to ensure Robb doesn't have a child. I think RW happening with a fresh bun in Talisas oven would be even more powerful, and as much as I'd like to see more of Robb that'd be GREAT television.

[sarah.jenice]

I was bothered by this, too. If we are just referencing stuff said on the show, in Season 1, the Greatjon makes his moving speech that declares Robb the King in the North and goes through all of the things that make them different from the southron people, "What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood. Even their gods are wrong." To me, that makes it pretty clear that they do not worship the Seven.

Karstarks reference to giving his heart to the Father if his sons could step out of their graves and walk into prison cells irritated me, but Robb and Talisa saying all of the names of the Seven just felt so wrong. It does seem reasonable (maybe) that this was because Talisa worships the Seven or there were no heart trees, or maybe that because Robb was doing it secretly, he couldn't involve any northmen to help him because as we saw with Ramsay and "Arya" the Northern weddings don't take much.

I am worried about where they are going with Robb's story line. If only they had let Robb and Catelyn hear Rickon and Bran were dead before they both make those turning point decisions, it would have been more understandable.

[dtones520]

Morvran, on 04 June 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

C'mon, you don't believe this.  You know a Stark king would never swear to the Seven.  And you know that "a tree in the woods" is not a heart tree.  Robb is already very aware that he has gone back on his word and broken his vow to a man, do you really think he'd just go, "Eh, what's another broken vow?  I'll forsake the gods I believe in while I'm at it."  

At the very least it was a poor job of communicating intent on the part of the writer.  But most likely it was poor writing, and poor fact-checking.

I do believe it 100%.

Robb's father was married in a Sept. Last I checked there are no Weirwoods in a sept. In the books Robb is married in the Westerlands, there are no Weirwoods in the South. The closest Weirwood is probably at Raventree Hall with lord Blackwood. There are gods woods, but no Weirwoods,which are the heart trees. Ned takes Arya and Sansa to pray in the Godswood in Kings Landing, there is no Heart Tree there, but they can still feel the power of the old gods.

It was actually good writing to combine both religions into the ceremony. If it was a traditional wedding of the Seven it would have happened in a Sept. It didn't happen in a Sept. it happened under a tree, why else would you have it under a tree at night if it weren't homage to the old gods?

[lojzelote]

David Selig, on 04 June 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

But Catelyn follows the Seven, so it makes a lot more sense for her and Ned to be married by a septon than Robb and Talisa (who most likely doesn't follow the Seven). Plus Catelyn was the daughter of a powerful Lord who could basically demand anything of Ned at this point since Ned really needed his army. Talisa is a nobody politically.

I know that every time we saw Robb pray, it was in the godswood, but I guess the TV producers just made a change (as they've changed everything) and now Robb prefers his mother's faith to his father's.Yes, it doesn't really make sense if the dominant religion of the North are the old gods, but I don't think the Northern lords will hate him this particular aspect of his marriage.