133 replies to this topic

[The Second Hand]

Discuss the awful handling of what could have been an utterly amazing scene. Let's sigh together, fellow Westies.

[Ran]

I liked much of Theon's story this season. It's easily the strongest character arc in the show. But a couple of things rang false:

1) I can't say I much cared for having Theon suddenly find some sort of mad deathwish-driven courage, since I think that ultimately betrays the fact that he always takes the path of least resistance in his life -- he is a moral coward at heart. I think leaving him at a point of such abject failure would be better than this course they took. Still, it's not a huge change I suppose.

2) On the other hand, the very final moments of his last scene rang utterly false. I suppose we're to take it that Dagmer and Lorren and the others had already planned to sell out Theon. But their cheering him? That's a bit too much. What's he going to do if they stare stonily at him, waiting for him to shut up? That's for the audience, and doesn't feel real and organic. I found it jarringly false.

[Black Unicorn]

Did anyone else get a resurge of the suspicion that Dagmer = Ramsey in the show from this scene? When Dagmer says "Let's go home", I got the impression he may have meant the Dreadfort. I'm still not sure how this would play with Ramsey being in disguise all the way from Pyke, but even with Roose previously talking about his bastard at the Dreadfort, I don't really think that Roose would have told the whole truth to Rob anyway.

[Reposado]

Ran, on 04 June 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I liked much of Theon's story this season. It's easily the strongest character arc in the show. But a couple of things rang false:

agree. it was a shallow ending to a great arc. why if these guys wanted to go so bad, did they not leave with yara? if they were going to abandon theon, the time to do that was before there was an army outside. how are they going to get past that?

Black Unicorn, on 04 June 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Did anyone else get a resurge of the suspicion that Dagmer = Ramsey in the show from this scene? When Dagmer says "Let's go home", I got the impression he may have meant the Dreadfort. I'm still not sure how this would play with Ramsey being in disguise all the way from Pyke, but even with Roose previously talking about his bastard at the Dreadfort, I don't really think that Roose would have told the whole truth to Rob anyway.

but all of the others are certainly ironborn. won't they be confused when he leads them east. I've never been a fan of the dagmer is ramsay theory just because of the plot logic it would require. ironborn let any random dude on their warships?

[Morvran]

Well considering they've cast Ramsay for next season I think we can finally drop the Dagmer=Ramsay stuff.

[I'm_Tim]

Ran, on 04 June 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I liked much of Theon's story this season. It's easily the strongest character arc in the show. But a couple of things rang false:

1) I can't say I much cared for having Theon suddenly find some sort of mad deathwish-driven courage, since I think that ultimately betrays the fact that he always takes the path of least resistance in his life -- he is a moral coward at heart. I think leaving him at a point of such abject failure would be better than this course they took. Still, it's not a huge change I suppose.

2) On the other hand, the very final moments of his last scene rang utterly false. I suppose we're to take it that Dagmer and Lorren and the others had already planned to sell out Theon. But their cheering him? That's a bit too much. What's he going to do if they stare stonily at him, waiting for him to shut up? That's for the audience, and doesn't feel real and organic. I found it jarringly false.

I liked it. They're Ironborn. They're assholes and they thought his whole speech was funny. I love the Ironborn because they gives no fucks about anything. It was clear they had no respect for Theon, which lends to Theon's story. He's a confused kid with no real home. Nobody wants him and he feels lost.

[turdle]

first, dagmer is not ramsey. although he has basically served the reek role this season, he is not actually the character, meerly a place holder to keep the same basic plot moving along.

secondly, related to winterfell, i didn't realize it until talking with a few non-book readers, but it really doesn't make sense that bran and company leave winterfell for the north given that it's never explained to them what happened in winterfell.  in the book, they know that ramsey burned it down and is aware that they're still alive so they're really in danger. but here, the viewer, as well as bran and co. are under the impression that the iron-islanders are the ones who burned down winterfell, but they're gone now, so there is no threat still in winterfell, so why run away?

[Frog One]

Lanza Rota, on 04 June 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

agree. it was a shallow ending to a great arc. why if these guys wanted to go so bad, did they not leave with yara? if they were going to abandon theon, the time to do that was before there was an army outside. how are they going to get past that?



but all of the others are certainly ironborn. won't they be confused when he leads them east. I've never been a fan of the dagmer is ramsay theory just because of the plot logic it would require. ironborn let any random dude on their warships?

Robb ordered Roose to spread the word that any Ironman who leaves be allowed to with the exception of Theon Greyjoy which resulted in his men betraying him. I thought that was made pretty clear.

Edited by Frog One, 04 June 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[Black Unicorn]

Lanza Rota, on 04 June 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

but all of the others are certainly ironborn. won't they be confused when he leads them east. I've never been a fan of the dagmer is ramsay theory just because of the plot logic it would require. ironborn let any random dude on their warships?

Couldn't really say. Similiarly, if they are all Ironborn, I'm not sure what makes them think putting a sack over Theon's head and handing him over to the northmen outside the gates would magically spare all their lives and just let them go home either. Besides, if Dagmer / the Ironborn AREN'T Ramsay and the Bastard's Boys, who burns Winterfell? The northmen there to free the castle wouldn't have any reason to torch it.

[Jamie Lannister]

Agreed with Ran here; I've thoroughly enjoyed Theon's arc this season, but that ending was piss poor.

Show, don't tell. Or if you absolutely can't show, you could at least bloody well have Maester Luwin tell... I have no idea what in the Seven Hells to make of that ending, and my non-ASoIaF-inclined friends are even more clueless. It wasn't that powerful and it honestly wasn't that personal. It was rather anticlimactic.

[Crown]

I'm glad we can get rid off that pathetic Dagmer=Ramsay theory. Horrible.

[Versiroth]

It would have been perfect if they'd have added in this scene....


- The Ironborn take Theon to a helmed man on a horse and give him over.  The man on the horse then tells his men to kill the ironborn and burn Winterfell.


It would have left the audience confused, but all would have made sense later on and it would have explained why Winterfell was burned.

Edited by Versiroth, 04 June 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[I'm_Tim]

I think they intended to make the viewer think the Ironborn burned Winterfell. I'm sure they'll address it at the start of next season. If they had shown Northmen burning Winterfell, that would have really confused the shit out of viewers.

[sumpthy]

Morvran, on 04 June 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Well considering they've cast Ramsay for next season I think we can finally drop the Dagmer=Ramsay stuff.

Have they?

[Black Unicorn]

I guess there is just something missing here that I'm not getting, it being again if the ironborn hand Theon over to the real Ramsay, who is leading the army surrounding Winterfell, and then the ironborn leave without a fight.... why does Winterfell get burned? :\

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I, on 04 June 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

I think they intended to make the viewer think the Ironborn burned Winterfell. I'm sure they'll address it at the start of next season. If they had shown Northmen burning Winterfell, that would have really confused the shit out of viewers.

Wasn't the general belief in Westeros that it was the ironborn who burned Winterfell?  Wasn't that the false story spread by the Bastard?  If that's the case, then they've basically put viewers in the same position as most of the people of Westeros.  It's a change, but one of perspective more than of substance.

[I'm_Tim]

Black Unicorn, on 04 June 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

I guess there is just something missing here that I'm not getting, it being again if the ironborn hand Theon over to the real Ramsay, who is leading the army surrounding Winterfell, and then the ironborn leave without a fight.... why does Winterfell get burned? :\

They said it was Roose's "bastard from the Dreadfort." Robb gave the order to let the Ironborn go free, except for Theon Greyjoy.

[atia-]

I'm worried that Ramsay isn't going to be cast, even though that seems ridiculous when they are casting people like Edmure Tully, the Blackfish, Olenna....all very important characters IMO, but Ramsay is up there with them, if not higher.  I thought Theon's story was one of the greatest of the season, until.....the final episode.  Talk about anticlimactic.

[I'm_Tim]

hk47, on 04 June 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I'm worried that Ramsay isn't going to be cast, even though that seems ridiculous when they are casting people like Edmure Tully, the Blackfish, Olenna....all very important characters IMO, but Ramsay is up there with them, if not higher.  I thought Theon's story was one of the greatest of the season, until.....the final episode.  Talk about anticlimactic.

Pretty much sums up Theon's life, no?

[sumpthy]

hk47, on 04 June 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I'm worried that Ramsay isn't going to be cast, even though that seems ridiculous when they are casting people like Edmure Tully, the Blackfish, Olenna....all very important characters IMO, but Ramsay is up there with them, if not higher.  I thought Theon's story was one of the greatest of the season, until.....the final episode.  Talk about anticlimactic.

He may not be in the next season since all we get in ASoS is Roose Bolton giving Robb an update on Theon Greyjoy.