Spidey Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 What i don't get is why they didn't cast Ramsay instead of Dagmer. Dagmer didn't do anything that they could have done just as well using Reek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm_Tim Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 What i don't get is why they didn't cast Ramsay instead of Dagmer. Dagmer didn't do anything that they could have done just as well using Reek.They don't want the audience to know the North is turning on Robb. That's my only guess. Also, they may not want to introduce Ramsay, then omit him for an entire season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turdle Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Before dying, Luwin does say that "they may come back" which is why Bran and co need to leave. Who "they" are is supposed to be ambiguous but it doesn't make much sense that Ironborn would come back again after sacking a city so he is most likely referring to Ramsay's men. Which is why it doesn't make sense for him to keep this information from Bran and Osha. Like a little heads up that the guys who were supposed to save them ended up being the ones who burnt their home down which means they can't trust anyone and should head to the Wall.But he couldn't impart that crucial bit of info because it would inform the audience of what actually happened and the writers want that reveal to remain frustratingly ambiguous until next season.exactly. the only thing they might do is have osha know, because the scene cuts before luwin is dead, but it's still odd because you'd think he'd impart the knowledge of what happened to her before getting her agree to kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 They can't omit him, because they can't omit a regular like Alfie Allen for an entire season. They need to show his imprisonment. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turdle Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 They can't omit him, because they can't omit a regular like Alfie Allen for an entire season. They need to show his imprisonment. .while i disagree with you that they couldn't omit alfie allen, i think you are probably right that they won't. but i do think they could have shown us bits of theons imprisonment without ever showing ramseys face. a scene here or there with theon in a cell, just before, or just after his torture, perhaps while he's escaped. and even if they wanted to show a bit of theons torture, they could do it without showing ramseys face too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direwolf Lager Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 dagmer is definitely not ramsay. the ironborn are going home and turning theon over to the northerners. i don't quite understand why they had dagmer kill maester luwin tho. i know he dies at this point in the novels but the show's explanation of it was quite dreadful. however, if ramsay snow appears early in next season, this storyline can redeem itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turdle Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 dagmer is definitely not ramsay. the ironborn are going home and turning theon over to the northerners. i don't quite understand why they had dagmer kill maester luwin tho. i know he dies at this point in the novels but the show's explanation of it was quite dreadful. however, if ramsay snow appears early in next season, this storyline can redeem itselffrom a story telling stand point, the reason they had dagmer kill luwin was to reinforce the mislead that the ironborn are the ones who burned winterfell down. from a narrative stand point, the reason dagmer kills luwin, is that dagmer is an asshole who doesn't like that whiny old maester, and they're on their way out anyways, so who gives a shit. also it's shocking. i'm more or less ok with this, but it's hard to explain to a non-reader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Reek Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Theon's speech wasw actuaaly pretty moving tho and i kinda expected to see something much cooler than what happened...... a little battle before ramsay gets thru or something epic ..... even if theon tried to yield and ask to join the nights watch only to have ramsay bitch slap him with his lobster clawed chainmail fist would have been great...... i jus hope dagmer gets some flaying action himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roboginger Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Well considering they've cast Ramsay for next season I think we can finally drop the Dagmer=Ramsay stuff. Have they? i have not heard anything about this, can i see the source i would be interested in reading it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mediumjon Umber Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I hope they will try to flesh out Theon's story arch next season, if he'll even be on the show next year. A good way of doing this would be him being shackled in the dreadfort, remembering how he woke up as they were leaving the DF (come on, Dagmer hitting him looked extremely weak). Maybe Ramsay would remove the hood, then slaying Dagmer, and then the sack of WF would begin. Well, here's to hoping.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Martin Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 They can't show Ramsay Bolton burning Winterfell. It had to be left ambiguous otherwise the viewers wouldn't continue to trust Roose Bolton.With this ending, we are in the same position as everyone else in Westeros. We think that the Ironmen burned Winterfell, so the reveal will be all the more compelling when we find out that Roose ordered his son Ramsay to burn it to the ground. I imagine there will be some extra dialogue at the RW or Roose's scene with Jaime where this will be discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tommen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 dagmer is definitely not ramsay. the ironborn are going home and turning theon over to the northerners. i don't quite understand why they had dagmer kill maester luwin tho. i know he dies at this point in the novels but the show's explanation of it was quite dreadful. however, if ramsay snow appears early in next season, this storyline can redeem itselfYou honestly believe that the Ironborn were allowed to leave after turning Theon over? The only reason this wasn't shown was because they're attempting to not telegraph that Ramsay (and Roose by association) are screwing Robb over. However, since it's the only real explanation that makes sense given how we see the aftermath, I don't think they're fooling too many audience members, only confusing them by not showing the entire sequence of events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turdle Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 You honestly believe that the Ironborn were allowed to leave after turning Theon over? The only reason this wasn't shown was because they're attempting to not telegraph that Ramsay (and Roose by association) are screwing Robb over. However, since it's the only real explanation that makes sense given how we see the aftermath, I don't think they're fooling too many audience members, only confusing them by not showing the entire sequence of events.i think it actually could work well enough as long as the audience doesn't over analyze what happened at winterfell. i've only heard one non-reader suspicious of the goings on there, beyond just a bit of shock that dagmer killed luwin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenlyWasNotGay Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I was extremely disappointed with the way they handled Theon's exit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Nick Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 What i don't get is why they didn't cast Ramsay instead of Dagmer. Dagmer didn't do anything that they could have done just as well using Reek.I think the Dagmer character represented the ideal Iron Born that Theon aspired to emulate...basically ruthless, cruel, and fearsome. The change definitely works in that it establishes the Iron Born as complete bastards and allows the viewer to see Theon's moral descent as he struggles to live up to that "standard." However, the show is sacrificing a pretty powerful component to the whole Ramsay/Theon story arc by eliminating the Reek character. I'm curious to see where the writers go from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tommen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 They can't show Ramsay Bolton burning Winterfell. It had to be left ambiguous otherwise the viewers wouldn't continue to trust Roose Bolton.With this ending, we are in the same position as everyone else in Westeros. We think that the Ironmen burned Winterfell, so the reveal will be all the more compelling when we find out that Roose ordered his son Ramsay to burn it to the ground. I imagine there will be some extra dialogue at the RW or Roose's scene with Jaime where this will be discussed.Except this isn't a very good secret for the audience. It's pretty clear that Ramsay burnt down Winterfell even though they didn't show it. Robb's orders were to allow the Ironborn to leave if they turned over Theon and allowed the forces to retake the city and Bran and Rickon were unharmed (they even made a point of showing Robb telling Roose explicitly this during the episode preview to remind the audience). Burning down Winterfell and taking off wasn't part of the deal so I don't think you have to be overly astute to notice that the Bastard's forces blatantly disobeyed the order.This is not some big long misdirection, it will most likely be cleared up in Episode 1 next season when we see Theon and the newly cast Ramsay back at the Dreadfort. It's not some clever misdirection for the audience, it's a "we can't show our cards yet because we can't show you the bad guy so we aren't spelling this all out at this moment". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jameson Snow Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Well I think at least when it comes to Dagmer and the crew's motivation, I don't think there is any confusion as to why they did what they did. They were fine allowing Theon to lead them and go raise some hell in Winterfell because that fit in with the Ironborn philosophy of reaving and taking what what they wanted, when they wanted. But when push came to shove, they had no real loyalty to Theon as a leader and when offered the option of giving him up in order to save their own lives and return home, it was an easy choice.There were issues with the end of Theon's storyline but that IMO was not one of them. I agree it fits in with their philosophy but not in terms of the location of Winterfell. When Asha gets there, she reminds Theon that the source of the Ironborn's strength is in their ships, which is why they need to stick to raiding towns, villages, etc. near water. Why would Ironborn sailors/soldiers ignore this idea and agree to go to where they would be weak? Surely, they would speak up in protest against Theon. I guess I just am confused by the character of Dagmer and his motivation. Why would he be the one to be somewhat kind and encouraging to Theon, helping him while all the other Ironborn despise him, and then just turn on him at the end? I get that he has no problem giving him up when his life is on the line, but it just seems like a big waste of time coming to Winterfell. What did he hope to accomplish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Noir Faineant Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Will Alfie Allen be back for season 3? Not a joke question. Would probably even make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theHoodedBard Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 The series has handle Theon Brilliantly, GRRM has made it clear he regrets portraying certain characters in a way and would change it in show.... "it should have been you" is one of these biggest moments. The series' Theon i think portrays the incredibly complexity of Theons life better than the books and what a struggle that situation would present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear Us Roar Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Ramsay will be in season 3. When Theon gets to the dreadfort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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