[Book Spoilers] Qhorin Half-Brain..err I mean Half-Hand

[bloodymime]

The last two posts including this one are great.

Ive been saying that the chase scene with qh and jon snow could have made for epic and amazing tv. The whole north of the wall storyline is a complete fail this season. I guess it was done so Ygritte could talk dirty one book early.

Great quote arrogant bastard.

"Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?” asked Qhorin Halfhand across the flickering fire."

I understand there's realities to the show but it was such a simplistic storyline, a bit of dialogue followed by the each man of the Night's Watch leaving to make a last stand to buy time for their brothers ending with Jon and the Halfhand sitting at the fire, is your sword sharp Jon Snow. How do you not want to see that as a fan of the books?

[Mulled Wino]

This. In a series where the conversations have been so special, they missed one great chance to flesh out Jon's character while interacting with the Halfhand. But I still got the books half hand. Now, if they screw up the Tall Talker and Jon next season. Pikes! Walls! :)

They didnt need more scenes, they needed the right scenes.

[Mulled Wino]

"Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?” asked Qhorin Halfhand across the flickering fire."

I understand there's realities to the show but it was such a simplistic storyline, a bit of dialogue followed by the each man of the Night's Watch leaving to make a last stand to buy time for their brothers ending with Jon and the Halfhand sitting at the fire, is your sword sharp Jon Snow. How do you not want to see that as a fan of the books?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel like it would have been just as easy to film and would have made the beyond the wall story sooooo much more epic. I may be partial because that entire arc was my favorite (along with arya's obviously) in SoS. So much drama and badassness from qh, js, rattleshirt and the rest of the wildlings. The eagle? Jon seeing the wildling forces through ghost's eyes? All easy stuff to create for tv.

[boojam]

In both the book and the show, if I were Mance Rayder, supposed smarter than the average bear, and heard a cock and bull story like that I would have killed Jon Snow right then and there.

[bloodymime]

It's why I've been staying out of this thread, The Wall storyline ended on such an incredible note in the first season and to have this was such a disappointment. I'm a big fan of the Halfhand so I understand I'm biased but I think you're right in that whole storyline could have been so dramatic and yet we're stuck with that whole goofy speech ending with Qhorin basically saying ahhh I'm just fucking with you Jonny boy, nothing means nothing. Just horrible stuff.

[Istakhr]

In both the book and the show, if I were Mance Rayder, supposed smarter than the average bear, and heard a cock and bull story like that I would have killed Jon Snow right then and there.

But we are not talking about Mance. Even if you hate Mance trusting Jon, you might agree what happened before they met was much more dramatic and epic as described in the books. :dunno:

[Sanette]

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gqrX9xlCilo Behind the Scenes of the fight

Another proof of how much they misunderstood/changed Jon's character. I'm wondering if they even read the same book as I did. That stunt guy and Simon Armstrong basically say that Jon needed to be pushed and forced into killing Qhorin. In the book he knew what he was supposed to do even though he didn't want to do it. He didn't need Qhorin's snarky remarks to "push him to the limit". That's just nonsense. And Alan Taylor's comments are just icing on the cake. So Jon is backing away from responsibility and killing Qhorin makes him a true warrior?

Ugh.

[Chaircat Meow]

Oh dear.

Will any of those people have read the books though?

Would people call what Jon Snow did in the books murder or does Taylor's comment reveal that, in his mind at least, Jon Show does kill Qhorin out of anger and only really grasps the plan later? If Jon was in on the plan and understood clearly what Qhorin was doing surely it is very implausible to think some jibes about his mother are going to make much difference to anyone who isn't a totally loose cannon.

Also, how is trying to do the right thing stepping away from responsibility?

Have you seen Kit's take on the scene where Ygritte escapes. I might have mentioned it on this thread before but Kit says that while Jon is influenced by what Ned has taught him and so doesn't want to kill a women; he is only so inclined to spare Ygritte because he is attracted to her and that were he told to execute a less attractive prisoner the result might not be the same. From this Kit concluded Jon was being selfish!

He also reads Jon as a twenty something year old in the books (interview with Wall Street Journal I think) despite saying he has teen angst issues that twenty somethings don't have. So its not surprising he thinks his character is a bit of a twit.

[teemo]

Yeah, they made Qhorin look like a bumbling old fool. If I never read the books I'd think he was a total idiot.

[Sanette]

Oh dear.

Will any of those people have read the books though?

Would people call what Jon Snow did in the books murder or does Taylor's comment reveal that, in his mind at least, Jon Show does kill Qhorin out of anger and only really grasps the plan later? If Jon was in on the plan and understood clearly what Qhorin was doing surely it is very implausible to think some jibes about his mother are going to make much difference to anyone who isn't a totally loose cannon.

Also, how is trying to do the right thing stepping away from responsibility?

Have you seen Kit's take on the scene where Ygritte escapes. I might have mentioned it on this thread before but Kit says that while Jon is influenced by what Ned has taught him and so doesn't want to kill a women; he is only so inclined to spare Ygritte because he is attracted to her and that were he told to execute a less attractive prisoner the result might not be the same. From this Kit concluded Jon was being selfish!

He also reads Jon as a twenty something year old in the books (interview with Wall Street Journal I think) despite saying he has teen angst issues that twenty somethings don't have. So its not surprising he thinks his character is a bit of a twit.

I don't think Taylor or Armstrong have read the books. They work with the information that DnD provide them.

That's the problem with that scene. It isn't clear if he acts out of anger or if he actually knows about Qhorin's plan. And this was never put into question in the book. At least that's how I see it. But if he was supposed to act just out of anger then they wouldn't have bothered with that setup scene in Ep 8. So what are they trying to accomplish here? Do they think that Jon is so afraid of taking responsibility that they had to throw in those remarks about his mother? If we're going with Taylor's view of things, how much does that alter Jon's character in the long run? Because in that case he really committed a murder. Nothing about this scene really makes sense.

I think that Kit has a really good understanding of who Jon really is. The problem is that he has to work with two versions of this character. Sometimes I feel like he's talking about Book!Jon in one interview and about Show!Jon in another. And I guess that comment about her being pretty and that's why he didn't kill her is in line with Jon Show. He's older so he would be more aware of his sexuality and maybe it was a subconscious thing? And Rose Leslie is hot which adds plausibility to this whole version of events. It is changed from the book but it works in the context of the show.

Does he really have any teen angst issues left in the second season, though? Because I don't remember him being angry at all this season except that scene with Ygritte in ep 7 but that had nothing to do with teen angst.

[Chaircat Meow]

I don't think Taylor or Armstrong have read the books. They work with the information that DnD provide them.

That's the problem with that scene. It isn't clear if he acts out of anger or if he actually knows about Qhorin's plan. And this was never put into question in the book. At least that's how I see it. But if he was supposed to act just out of anger then they wouldn't have bothered with that setup scene in Ep 8. So what are they trying to accomplish here? Do they think that Jon is so afraid of taking responsibility that they had to throw in those remarks about his mother? If we're going with Taylor's view of things, how much does that alter Jon's character in the long run? Because in that case he really committed a murder. Nothing about this scene really makes sense.

I think that Kit has a really good understanding of who Jon really is. The problem is that he has to work with two versions of this character. Sometimes I feel like he's talking about Book!Jon in one interview and about Show!Jon in another. And I guess that comment about her being pretty and that's why he didn't kill her is in line with Jon Show. He's older so he would be more aware of his sexuality and maybe it was a subconscious thing? And Rose Leslie is hot which adds plausibility to this whole version of events. It is changed from the book but it works in the context of the show.

Does he really have any teen angst issues left in the second season, though? Because I don't remember him being angry at all this season except that scene with Ygritte in ep 7 but that had nothing to do with teen angst.

It is very confusing. It will be annoying if they don't clarify the whole thing next season but like you said, it doesn't seem to make very much sense.

I'm not really in a position to pass judgement as I haven't seen that many interviews with Kit and its actually been a while since I've read the first three books.

With the whole Ygritte thing I just thought it was interesting because it was yet another way Jon Snow and Jon Show differ and Jon Show is, as ever, less than his book counterpart, in this case being less noble. Kit must think Jon's attraction played a big part in his hesitancy or he wouldn't have described his actions as selfish. It does make sense if you consider how lousy Jon Show is though, yeah.

I'm not sure what it has to do with age though. Sure, Jon Show is more aware of his sexuality than Jon Snow (who was totally clueless in this regard) but I don't see why this matters. In the books Ygritte is ugly and he spares her anyway. There is no reason to make him less noble in the show, and as a result describe his actions as selfish because Rose Leslie is hot.

The teen angst refers to the first book. The odd thing is that Kit sees the book character as twenty despite acknowledging his teenage problems and it makes little sense. If I thought Jon Snow was really written as a twenty year old (due to Grrm messing up the ages) I wouldn't think as much of him.

[Mulled Wino]

I dont think kit has the proper persepctive on jon snow. I thought he was talking about jon being too impulsive and alittlw on dumb side in interviews. Kit was actually forced to backtrack on some comments. They're all in the thread for episode 8- thread- The Continuing emasculation of jon snow.

Sanette, i think we spoke about his retraction in the past.

[Sanette]

I dont think kit has the proper persepctive on jon snow. I thought he was talking about jon being too impulsive and alittlw on dumb side in interviews. Kit was actually forced to backtrack on some comments. They're all in the thread for episode 8- thread- The Continuing emasculation of jon snow.

Sanette, i think we spoke about his retraction in the past.

I know we did but I'm starting to understand his point of view.

Because if he's talking about Jon Show then he's right, isn't he? Jon Show is dumb and impulsive and less noble than Book!Jon. Now I would like to know if he knows that he's playing a different character and if he agrees with how the writers adapt his storyline and character. I just hope they'll stay closer to the book next season.

[Chaircat Meow]

So having read them all does that influence how you play Jon?

I love having source material so having something there that is giving you as much about your character as you can, I love to know as much as I can. I got too far ahead of myself and had to reel it all back in, "wait a minute this is a long process we're going on, I need to make sure I don't endgame and end up somewhere where I've got nowhere to leave myself to go." So I reeled it back in and realised that at the start he's different from how he is when he gets further along the line. But I think it was important to read them because I could get a real grip of who he was.

What have you learned about Jon?

Something I learned about him recently, I was trying to work him out and I was thinking, "actually is he quite stupid?" Because I made a few decisions about him and it led to this person who in the books he makes a lot of mistakes, he acts first and doesn't think about things and so I realised recently he's a very instinctual person. He's a good person, he'll do the right things for people but he won't think ahead of time.

I had another part that I had to think about that was similar to Jon but for a different project and I was trying to think how to differ them and actually the other guy thinks about things and then acts. So he's [Jon} an instinctual person that's what I realised about him and I think that makes him who he is. He's not exactly intelligent as we think of people being intelligent, he knows how to use a sword and he's a good person and he's a natural leader but he doesn't think ahead too much.

He's probably one of the few good people in the entire series isn’t he?

Well again he does bad things, I think that's the exciting thing about this series. No one's really good, no one's really bad. He's one of the more sympathetic characters and you should like him, I think if you're a good person but he makes mistakes further on as do other people. So he's not entirely clean as a white piece of paper or whatever the expression is [laughs].

Do you think that's part of the appeal of the series, it's everyone doing bad things?

I think it is yeah. I think you're right. The appeal of this is that there is no Gandalf who's wonderful and does everything right. Ned Stark did stupid things, was wrong. He fathered an illegitimate child. He's not completely clean. I think people can relate to this because it's about people's faults, it's about what people do for power. It's been said a hundred times but it really is a fantasy that's based with a real sense of reality and the characters are faulted, every single one of them in some way.

Sorry Sanette but I just think he knows nothing because it does sound like he means the book character and I don't think he has read DwD.

[Strider]

Egads! Let me get this straight. Folks are critical because Qhorin doesn't say out right to Jon, and risking being overheard, "Jon, kill me." He's already told Jon that it would be really useful to the Brotherhood if he could win Mance's confidence and spy on the Wildling from the "inside." Everyone watching the show heard him and say this and heard Jon say something along the lines, "They'll never trust me." And what did Qhorin say in response? I forget his exact words but his meaning was clear, as was the implication.

Jon knows very well that Qhorin has attacked him precisely so that Jon will kill him and thus win Mance's trust. Jon knows that. Qhorin knows that. The viewers know that. It doesn't have to be stated any more explicitly. It's absolutely clear. Jon doesn't act in anger or confusion. He knows exactly what Qhorin wants him to do. He just doesn't want to do it.

And if it's not 99.99% clear to some viewers ... well, it is the season finale ... so let the viewers wonder and return to season 3 to find out exactly what is going on. But let's stop the nonsense that Jon's story has been ruined because Qhorin didn't command Jon, directly, explicitly, unambiguously, to kill him. I mean really.

[Chaircat Meow]

Egads! Let me get this straight. Folks are critical because Qhorin doesn't say out right to Jon, and risking being overheard, "Jon, kill me." He's already told Jon that it would be really useful to the Brotherhood if he could win Mance's confidence and spy on the Wildling from the "inside." Everyone watching the show heard him and say this and heard Jon say something along the lines, "They'll never trust me." And what did Qhorin say in response? I forget his exact words but his meaning was clear, as was the implication.

Jon knows very well that Qhorin has attacked him precisely so that Jon will kill him and thus win Mance's trust. Jon knows that. Qhorin knows that. The viewers know that. It doesn't have to be stated any more explicitly. It's absolutely clear. Jon doesn't act in anger or confusion. He knows exactly what Qhorin wants him to do. He just doesn't want to do it.

And if it's not 99.99% clear to some viewers ... well, it is the season finale ... so let the viewers wonder and return to season 3 to find out exactly what is going on. But let's stop the nonsense that Jon's story has been ruined because Qhorin didn't command Jon, directly, explicitly, unambiguously, to kill him. I mean really.

Well, Alan Taylor, Simon Armstrong and co seem to disagree.

Anyway, Jon Show doesn't know Qhorin wants him to kill him after that conversation.

[Ghost Rider]

snip quotes of the interview

Seems like he didn't only misinterprete Jon Snow, but Ned Stark as well. :) Ned Stark fathering an illegitimate son? Not in my book. ;););) And I also didn't read Ned Stark as being about power so much... Anyway, more grievous are his misconceptions about Jon because imho they directly lead to the ehm... different... portrayal of Jon Snow in the show to the point where I don't recognize the character anymore.

Book!Jon pretty obviously is a smart kid, able to make decisions on the spot. Jon Show... oh well, is generally incompetent, stupid and a waste of space. I've argued last season already that the aging up of characters such as Jon and Robb would do them no favours as characters because their mistakes in the beginning of the series usually come from youthful naivety. And while aging up to 17 years old doesn't seem that much, it is when that supposed 17year old is played by a mid20s guy and I just don't buy them being still teenagers. If anything they should have made the character smarter due to aging up, he should be more experienced because of it, instead he's dumbed down.

Because of this they need to dumb down other characters like the Wildlings as well to "explain" why they would take Jon in. And if Ygritte really knows what Jon and Qhorin had planned and doesn't tell on them, she's a traitor to her people. Book!Ygritte would rather have knived down Jon!

Anyway, I really don't think the problem is in the final fight alone. The problem is in the overall set up to the fight, which btw from a pure TV viewpoint lacked suspense and drama for me because I really cared nothing for the characters involved.

[Sanette]

Seems like he didn't only misinterprete Jon Snow, but Ned Stark as well. :) Ned Stark fathering an illegitimate son? Not in my book. ;) ;) ;) And I also didn't read Ned Stark as being about power so much... Anyway, more grievous are his misconceptions about Jon because imho they directly lead to the ehm... different... portrayal of Jon Snow in the show to the point where I don't recognize the character anymore.

Book!Jon pretty obviously is a smart kid, able to make decisions on the spot. Jon Show... oh well, is generally incompetent, stupid and a waste of space. I've argued last season already that the aging up of characters such as Jon and Robb would do them no favours as characters because their mistakes in the beginning of the series usually come from youthful naivety. And while aging up to 17 years old doesn't seem that much, it is when that supposed 17year old is played by a mid20s guy and I just don't buy them being still teenagers. If anything they should have made the character smarter due to aging up, he should be more experienced because of it, instead he's dumbed down.

Because of this they need to dumb down other characters like the Wildlings as well to "explain" why they would take Jon in. And if Ygritte really knows what Jon and Qhorin had planned and doesn't tell on them, she's a traitor to her people. Book!Ygritte would rather have knived down Jon!

Anyway, I really don't think the problem is in the final fight alone. The problem is in the overall set up to the fight, which btw from a pure TV viewpoint lacked suspense and drama for me because I really cared nothing for the characters involved.

I actually agree with this. (And with you Procopius. That interview annoyed me too. I don't even remember he was so out of line.) I'm not trying to defend him (not anymore lol), I just don't think it was his decision alone. They dumbed down most of the characters this season which means that it was a conscious decision made by the writers. They are the people in charge and they should've told him something. And since they didn't, they obviously agree with his point of view.

Ned did father an illegitimate child though. At least in everyone else's eyes, so he's not wrong. Jon's changed character is one of many factors that killed his story arc this season. If they did that part with Qhorin right then some of the damage could have been undone. Unfortunately, they did everything wrong.

[Mulled Wino]

I know we did but I'm starting to understand his point of view.

Because if he's talking about Jon Show then he's right, isn't he? Jon Show is dumb and impulsive and less noble than Book!Jon. Now I would like to know if he knows that he's playing a different character and if he agrees with how the writers adapt his storyline and character. I just hope they'll stay closer to the book next season.

This is absolutely correct, im just interested which came first.. Was this how D&D wanted his to portray Jon Show or is this Kit's interpretation?

[Mulled Wino]

Egads! Let me get this straight. Folks are critical because Qhorin doesn't say out right to Jon, and risking being overheard, "Jon, kill me." He's already told Jon that it would be really useful to the Brotherhood if he could win Mance's confidence and spy on the Wildling from the "inside." Everyone watching the show heard him and say this and heard Jon say something along the lines, "They'll never trust me." And what did Qhorin say in response? I forget his exact words but his meaning was clear, as was the implication.

Jon knows very well that Qhorin has attacked him precisely so that Jon will kill him and thus win Mance's trust. Jon knows that. Qhorin knows that. The viewers know that. It doesn't have to be stated any more explicitly. It's absolutely clear. Jon doesn't act in anger or confusion. He knows exactly what Qhorin wants him to do. He just doesn't want to do it.

And if it's not 99.99% clear to some viewers ... well, it is the season finale ... so let the viewers wonder and return to season 3 to find out exactly what is going on. But let's stop the nonsense that Jon's story has been ruined because Qhorin didn't command Jon, directly, explicitly, unambiguously, to kill him. I mean really.

Its a lot more than this. Why would the wildlings just accept jon? He hasnt't renounced anything, he just had a fight with Qh cuz qh talked bad about his mom. All the sudden they just freed him.

Jon's story was ruined because of every single scene he was in this season. The changes served to weaken his character and invalidate all of the growing up he did last season. His entire arc this season makes zero sense. Why would QH allow Jon Show to join his elite ranging force when he had to beg and Mormont clowns him in front of everyone? Why would they lose Jon? They just took off over the ridge and forgot about him?

I could go on and on and on...