xythil Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 I had the belief that Jon's motivations for killing Qhorin didn't come across as well. I thought that the show must have ruined his character also. Then I talked to about 10 people who did not read the books but watched the show. Every single one of them understood what happened and that Jon did not forsake his vows. I then went on to read reviews online, and every single mention of the incident says that Qhorin gave up his life so that Jon could gain the trust of the wildlings and act as a spy.This is the meat of the story told in the book. This is the heart of the characterization so I am not upset by the changes. Especially changes that allowed me to spend more time with Rose Leslie on my television screenLike i hate to make this personal but its because of people like you we cant have nice things.You sacrafice amazing scenes like squire dalbridges sacrafice and qhorin half hand mentoring hon...really showing yo the nights watch is more than just a penal colony for rapists,,,not just us he vewer but jon as well....for some average red headed chick humping a dudes leg?You want porn go waych porn. I want a well old story...and sadly when it comes to Jon we got trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtones520 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 This post is hilarious. I agree with you about everything but none of what you say supports the argument you think it does. Just answer this, if Jon kills Qhorin and realizes only then what 'do what must be done means' he didn't kill him to prove himself a turncoat did he? Qhorin is unarmed when Jon kills him which means Jon is a murderer and has no excuse as he hadn't figured out Qhorin's plan.Duh.Jon killed Qhorin because if he didn't the Wildlings wouldn't let one of them walk away from that fight. When you are fighting someone with a sword and you disarm him, that is when you kill him. Unless he yields and then you kill hi , it's OT murder. If Jon doesn't kill Qhorin, Qhorin kills Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versiroth Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Sorry, double post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versiroth Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 From Kit Harrington: "I think the soul of Jon has been ripped out from doing that. Killing a faceless wildling beyond The Wall is one thing, but killing your teacher, your commander, this notorious hero of the Night's Watch, to know that you have to go with the wildlings and pretend to be something you're not, to pretend to be a traitor when you're not is hard." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 You want porn go waych porn. I want a well old story...and sadly when it comes to Jon we got trash.This post actually made me laugh. If I were to be trying to watch porn, and all I got was two completely bundled up people showing as much flesh as a pilgrim in an igloo, then I would be pissed.and to whomever referred to Rose Leslie as an "average redhead", I will be really mad at you as soon as she meets me and falls madly and passionately in love with me and decides to have my babies.None of this is trying to take away any of the things that you are upset about. I can understand why you are frustrated at losing a lot of time with Qhorin. I just don't believe for one minute that the audience thinks that Jon is now a traitor and a murderer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versiroth Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 http://tv.yahoo.com/news/game-thrones-kit-harington-jons-soul-ripped-021600505.htmlRead that interview. Jon knew he was supposed to kill Qhorin before he killed him. Everything else was him trying to be convincing to the wildlings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xythil Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 http://tv.yahoo.com/...-021600505.htmlRead that interview. Jon knew he was supposed to kill Qhorin before he killed him. Everything else was him trying to be convincing to the wildlings.Not sure why anyone is arguing if Jon knew or not....All John knows is the nights watch is a joke...its greatest livig legend is a joke who thinks his vows were "just words"Instead of a journey that shows there is honor, sacrafice, and a real purpose to the nighs watch...enough to make jon for go sannis offer later in favor of his brothers....we get leg humping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turdle Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 i think you are misunderstanding the complaint. i believe that the writers intended for jon snow to be in on the plan. but i also believe that the show failed to convey that. so that kit harrington says "I think the soul of Jon has been ripped out from doing that. Killing a faceless wildling beyond The Wall is one thing, but killing your teacher, your commander, this notorious hero of the Night's Watch, to know that you have to go with the wildlings and pretend to be something you're not, to pretend to be a traitor when you're not is hard," it doesn't matter at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Jon killed Qhorin because if he didn't the Wildlings wouldn't let one of them walk away from that fight. When you are fighting someone with a sword and you disarm him, that is when you kill him. Unless he yields and then you kill hi , it's OT murder. If Jon doesn't kill Qhorin, Qhorin kills Jon.Nope.There is no evidence in that scene that the wildlings want a fight to the death as it all happens too fast.Qhorin cannot kill Jon sans sword. It isn't knightly combat or anything, if Jon is not in on the plan at this point (which you agree with) then he had no reason to kill a man he had disarmed and had some reason to believe had either lost his mind or was behaving very strangely.It was murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 OK... Here is the question...If we as book readers know that Jon and the Halfhand had a plan that Jon would kill Qhorin to gain the trust of the wildlings so he could spy on them and at least one of them would live.and...People who did not read the books almost unanimously came to the same conclusion.and...The actors know the same thing and are speaking about it.What is the problem?Complaints about losing plot with Qhorin are perfectly legitimate gripes. I can even agree that I would have liked to have the time this year to see a more accurate portrayal. What I can't agree with is that the show somehow "confused" the viewers and the motivation for Jon Snow's character was completely changed because everyone has the same opinion of his motivation whether we read the books or didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakswim Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 This is the first issue in two seasons that has really dissapointed. The Kings Landing stuff felt unnecessary after last week, I kinda understand why they wanted to show Tyrion getting robbed of his brilliant battle plan. But with how little we've seen of Jon and Qhorin his entire storyline this season felt more like things happening to Jon rather than Jon changing to adapt to a new situation. We needed to see somehow that this is having an effect on Jon that a handful of short scenes just can't convey. God I wish this show would get another 2-3 hours per season. Still excited to see the wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versiroth Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 i think you are misunderstanding the complaint. i believe that the writers intended for jon snow to be in on the plan. but i also believe that the show failed to convey that. so that kit harrington says "I think the soul of Jon has been ripped out from doing that. Killing a faceless wildling beyond The Wall is one thing, but killing your teacher, your commander, this notorious hero of the Night's Watch, to know that you have to go with the wildlings and pretend to be something you're not, to pretend to be a traitor when you're not is hard," it doesn't matter at all.Sure it matters. People are saying that Jon is now a murder. That he's not the same as he was in the books. They're saying that he killed Qhorin out of rage. They're saying he didn't know about the plan until after he killed him, etc. Heck, that last one is from you yourself. The interview I posted has Kit saying that Jon knew. So, what happens in the book and the movie is the same. The path is different, but the end result is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadco26 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Jon killed Qhorin because if he didn't the Wildlings wouldn't let one of them walk away from that fight. When you are fighting someone with a sword and you disarm him, that is when you kill him. Unless he yields and then you kill hi , it's OT murder. If Jon doesn't kill Qhorin, Qhorin kills Jon.Neither one of them was about to be executed when the fight happened, so to say neither would have walked away isn't exactly true. Both could have walked away and lived at least long enough to see Mance. Beyond that, why do the wildlings now seemingly trust Jon when he hasn't even asked if he can join them, and only killed Qhorin in self defense? Qhorin calling Jon a traitor made no sense when Jon never did anything to show he was a traitor. In comparision to the books where Jon aks to join the wildlings, Rattleshirt tells him to kill Qhorin, and then he still doesn't trust Jon.Sure it matters. People are saying that Jon is now a murder. That he's not the same as he was in the books. They're saying that he killed Qhorin out of rage. They're saying he didn't know about the plan until after he killed him, etc. Heck, that last one is from you yourself. The interview I posted has Kit saying that Jon knew. So, what happens in the book and the movie is the same. The path is different, but the end result is the same.The show didn't make it clear that is for sure, and the set up was clumsy at best. Which all goes back to why change it in the first place? I can't see how they saved any screen time or budget by altering it the way they did. It seems like this season was based on a bunch of bets by the writers to see how much they could change the story and still "get to the same place". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turdle Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 OK... Here is the question...If we as book readers know that Jon and the Halfhand had a plan that Jon would kill Qhorin to gain the trust of the wildlings so he could spy on them and at least one of them would live.and...People who did not read the books almost unanimously came to the same conclusion.and...The actors know the same thing and are speaking about it.What is the problem?1- it seems that many, if not most, of the readers did not interpret jon as knowing the plan.2- you are my only source that non-readers interpreted it that way. here is at least one example of non-readers (very well informed non-readers i might add) who did not interpret the scene as jon understanding what qhorin was doing: (skip ahead to about 20:00 to see the scene discussed)3- it doesn't matter at all if kit harrington knows what jon snows favorite flavor of ice cream is if it's never conveyed on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Sure it matters. People are saying that Jon is now a murder. That he's not the same as he was in the books. They're saying that he killed Qhorin out of rage. They're saying he didn't know about the plan until after he killed him, etc. Heck, that last one is from you yourself. The interview I posted has Kit saying that Jon knew. So, what happens in the book and the movie is the same. The path is different, but the end result is the same.The only people saying John is a murderer who forsook his oaths are us book readers. I said it also upon watching the episode. I was wrong, because the writers gave enough of the real motivations away to the audience that the non book reader understood the plot. So.. the truth is, is that it is resoundingly understood by people that John Snow is going to act as a spy for the Night's Watch next season.2- you are my only source that non-readers interpreted it that way. here is at least one example of non-readers (very well informed non-readers i might add) who did not interpret the scene as jon understanding what qhorin was doing: (skip ahead to about 20:00 to see the scene discussed)Ok... You found one person that doesn't have a clue... I can link dozens of recaps and review that refute this. literally dozens. here is one.. starts at 25:45http://www.youtube.com/otakuassemble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turdle Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Sure it matters. People are saying that Jon is now a murder. That he's not the same as he was in the books. They're saying that he killed Qhorin out of rage. They're saying he didn't know about the plan until after he killed him, etc. Heck, that last one is from you yourself. The interview I posted has Kit saying that Jon knew. So, what happens in the book and the movie is the same. The path is different, but the end result is the same.the way he has been presented on the tv show, that is what matters, not what the actor thinks, or knows. the only thing that matters is what's up on the screen. if jon, at some point says, "yeah, i knew it all along." then that changes things, not what kit harrington says in an interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turdle Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Ok... You found one person that doesn't have a clue... I can link dozens of recaps and review that refute this. literally dozens. here is one http://www.youtube.com/otakuassemble refute? how does one refute someone else's interpretation? the point is that it can be, and i think very reasonably (and so did you), interpreted that jon is tricked. i don't have access to dozens of people at the moment, but of the video's i've seen online, of people who are non-readers, it's split 50/50. most of the video reviews online are people who have read the books.there are 0 people who read the books who thought jon was tricked in the book, and there is no reason that it couldn't have been the same on the tv show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 the way he has been presented on the tv show, that is what matters, not what the actor thinks, or knows. the only thing that matters is what's up on the screen. if jon, at some point says, "yeah, i knew it all along." then that changes things, not what kit harrington says in an interview.The way it was presented was that Quorin told Jon about his plan two weeks ago. They even put it in the previouslies. If people can't remember that, it's their own damn fault for having crappy memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 For me the way it played out in the show will make it harder for me to believe him when he returns to the NW. Jon Snow could say QH ORDERED me to DO WHATEVER IT TOOK. Jon Show has to say, well umm I think he was telling me to kill him, sleep with Y, climb the wall and all, well that is how I took it.Again, I keep coming back to is Jon SHow the badass who stands up to Mel and Stannis, defeats Thenn and Mance and then walks right into the camp of 30,000 wildings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turdle Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 The way it was presented was that Quorin told Jon about his plan two weeks ago. If people can't remember that, it's their own damn fault for having bad longterm memory.please read the previous pages of this thread in which that issue has already been discussed before jumping on the last thing i wrote like you have a new revelation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.