246 replies to this topic

[SerMixalot]

For me the whole Jon arc in Season 2 let alone the QH part was just plain wrong from beginning to end.  I actually get that QH ordered Jon to do something, but what that something is, is open to debate, creating problems for Jon in the future (even from a self justification standpoint, will he truly believe QH was ordering  him to kill him and join the wildings, turn his cloak all without an explicit order?)

I can see that D&D attempted to put those orders in the series, but the fact that they are open to question creates a HUGE problem for Jon coming up, given the extremity of the NW oath.

For example, try NOT turning your cloak, stay as a prisoner, get intel and escape! could fall under the same communication presented in the TV series.

I've said it before and I will say it again, D&D have communicated a motivation for Jon that simply is 180 degrees from book Jon.  They believe Jon is seeking a father figure and clearly that characterization has transcended season 2.  And I believe that it is a completely wrong interpretation and the basis for all the problems Jon's arc has.  That father figure seeking impacted his interactions with Caster, Mormont and QH throughout the series.  Are we believe that these travails have trained, have matured, have taught Jon how to be a leader?  Can Show Jon justify his actions over the next two seasons?  i.e will he be man enough to spar mentally with Mance, escape the raiders, defend against the Thenns, defend the wall against the wildings, stand up to Slynt, stand up to Stannis and Melisandre?  NO WAY

And how stupid are the Wildings.  Jon hasnt even indicated a desire to turn his cloak.  Why should Rattleshirt be handing him a sword?

[SerMixalot]

on the D&D perspective Jon, they have stated Jon was seeking a father figure and that has decided so muc of his actions the 2nd season.  But lets look at the facts both of book and show jon

Ned-taught him about honor and duty
Ser Rodrik-taught him about the sword, respect for arms, understanding his limits and potential
Maester Luwin-educated him on history and westeros

that is the raw material that went to the NW.  IT was established in Season 1 (and true to teh books) that Jon was naive and confused over his place in the world.

Through season 1 he lost his naivete, he learned hw to treat his fellow recruits.  Mormont making him his steward gave Jon the understanding of where he stood in the world.  By the start of Season 2, Jon was ready for greatness.  He worked his way through the early parts of Book 2 with talent and wisdom.  He did not need to learn from a father figure, he knew what he was, and he knew what he had to do.

He handled Craster with ability and diplomacy (getting Sam out of his bind with Gilly).  He served Mormont fine.  He does his duties well and finds time to find the dragonglass.  This is the story of a highly competent young leader of men.

QH asked him to come with him, Jon doesnt have to ask for the position, cause he knows who he is and what he is.  WHen given the opportunity (is asked if he wants to go) he says yes, that is a huge difference from seeking the assignment, which show jon is not ready for.

i guess D&D will have him killing QH as some sort of defining moment where he has become the leader of men he is supposed to be.  But their execution is so poorly done.  Looking at the interaction with QH leading up to the fight and the fight itself should only result in an undermining of Jon's belief structure and especially in his belief in himself.  The lack of clearly defined orders SHOULD lead a young man in his circumstances to doubt himself tremendously and leave him no foundation to hold onto as he goes through his next trials.  Yes book Jon expresses doubts but he ALWAYS has the foundation of orders to fall back on.  that anchor to who he is.

I find it completely unbelievable that Jon will be able to emerge from his time with the WIldings with the self confidence to do what he will end up doing.

[Mulled Wino]

SerMixalot, on 11 June 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

on the D&D perspective Jon, they have stated Jon was seeking a father figure and that has decided so muc of his actions the 2nd season.  But lets look at the facts both of book and show jon

Ned-taught him about honor and duty
Ser Rodrik-taught him about the sword, respect for arms, understanding his limits and potential
Maester Luwin-educated him on history and westeros

that is the raw material that went to the NW.  IT was established in Season 1 (and true to teh books) that Jon was naive and confused over his place in the world.

Through season 1 he lost his naivete, he learned hw to treat his fellow recruits.  Mormont making him his steward gave Jon the understanding of where he stood in the world.  By the start of Season 2, Jon was ready for greatness.  He worked his way through the early parts of Book 2 with talent and wisdom.  He did not need to learn from a father figure, he knew what he was, and he knew what he had to do.

He handled Craster with ability and diplomacy (getting Sam out of his bind with Gilly).  He served Mormont fine.  He does his duties well and finds time to find the dragonglass.  This is the story of a highly competent young leader of men.

QH asked him to come with him, Jon doesnt have to ask for the position, cause he knows who he is and what he is.  WHen given the opportunity (is asked if he wants to go) he says yes, that is a huge difference from seeking the assignment, which show jon is not ready for.

i guess D&D will have him killing QH as some sort of defining moment where he has become the leader of men he is supposed to be.  But their execution is so poorly done.  Looking at the interaction with QH leading up to the fight and the fight itself should only result in an undermining of Jon's belief structure and especially in his belief in himself.  The lack of clearly defined orders SHOULD lead a young man in his circumstances to doubt himself tremendously and leave him no foundation to hold onto as he goes through his next trials.  Yes book Jon expresses doubts but he ALWAYS has the foundation of orders to fall back on.  that anchor to who he is.

I find it completely unbelievable that Jon will be able to emerge from his time with the WIldings with the self confidence to do what he will end up doing.

Jon did a more than admirable job on his mission with QH and his crew as well...not so much on the show.
Furthermore, this isnt even considering Jon Snow's ace in the hole.....

[Sanette]

Mulled Wino, on 11 June 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

This is absolutely correct, im just interested which came first.. Was this how D&D wanted his to portray Jon Show or is this Kit's interpretation?

The scripts are written first so that leads me to believe that DnD are the root of all evil. I remember Kit saying at the start of S2 that he's trying to stay as true to book!Jon as possible. Then in that WSJ interview he says that he knows he drifted from the book and that: "There were changes I had to make to fit that within who he is in my head. There are certain things that he has to compromise in our series that he doesn't in the book and that changes him fundamentally as a character". And that probably answers my question regarding his knowledge of the changes. But that doesn't mean he didn't have a hand in making them, I guess.

The changes are really significant and I'm not sure they can connect Jon Show from S2 with Jon Snow from ASoS. How can they do it without changing him even more or his character's development looking contrived? Well, it's their mess and they have to clean it up.

[If It Please]

all we really needed was a subtle wink from Qhorin after Jon broke his sword, a little head nod from Jon, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

that's just my vote for more winks and head nods in future seasons.

[SerMixalot]

If It Please, on 12 June 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

all we really needed was a subtle wink from Qhorin after Jon broke his sword, a little head nod from Jon, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

that's just my vote for more winks and head nods in future seasons.

look at the mileage arya got out of a shrug, replaced the entire weasel soup episode!

[Pugsley]

If It Please, on 12 June 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

all we really needed was a subtle wink from Qhorin after Jon broke his sword, a little head nod from Jon, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

that's just my vote for more winks and head nods in future seasons.

I find myself wondering if they're being intentionally ambiguous with Jon's motivation in order to create a Snape-type situation in which the viewer has to guess whether Jon's a turncloak or not. Maybe the producers think that making us question Jon's true loyalties will improve his S3 journey? Who knows.
A scene in S3 in which it is clarified that Jon knew what was happening during the fight, as contrived as that might be, might be one way to correct Jon's present course. Though frankly, Jon's been portrayed as so dim-witted during S2 that I would be very surprised he'd be capable of "pretending" to kill Quorin out of anger.

[VivaVictarion2]

My two cents:
What the HBO folks did with Jon's arc and his relationship with the Halfhand was absolutely shamefull...yet another example that they (exce. producers) are not (maybe never were) true fans of ASoIaF.

[If It Please]

Pugsley, on 12 June 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

I find myself wondering if they're being intentionally ambiguous with Jon's motivation in order to create a Snape-type situation in which the viewer has to guess whether Jon's a turncloak or not. Maybe the producers think that making us question Jon's true loyalties will improve his S3 journey? Who knows.
A scene in S3 in which it is clarified that Jon knew what was happening during the fight, as contrived as that might be, might be one way to correct Jon's present course. Though frankly, Jon's been portrayed as so dim-witted during S2 that I would be very surprised he'd be capable of "pretending" to kill Quorin out of anger.

Yeah tough to say. I've successfully detached myself from the show so I don't get too upset with the arguable blunders. I just go with it at this point. Every once in awhile the writers and producers surprise me and there's something in an episode of S2 that's actually well conceived/written/executed.

Cheers to those scenes!

[Ghost Rider]

VivaVictarion2, on 13 June 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

My two cents:
What the HBO folks did with Jon's arc and his relationship with the Halfhand was absolutely shamefull...yet another example that they (exce. producers) are not (maybe never were) true fans of ASoIaF.

Yeah, it seems obvious now from the quotes upthread that they completely misunderstood the character. The world-building is lacking as well (Talisa wedding, Wildlings accepting a weakling Jon), but oh well, it's only a show...

[VivaElRayoSenor]

I realize I'm late in joining the discussion, but I just finished Season 2 yesterday.  For what it's worth, I thought the episode made Jon look like a complete deserter/oathbreaker.  What makes me furious is how out of character this is for a boy who was raised by NED STARK and following in the footsteps of Uncle Ben Jen.  It's just not the Stark way!

I wish there had been some dialogue between Jon and the Halfhand.  In fact, I was waiting for it, right up until the part where their faces came close together while they were fighting, I thought, "This has to be it," but nothing!  The scene could have been so much more dramatic and emotional if the writers had been slightly more demonstrative, if the viewers had felt that Jon had his back to the wall and would only kill the Halfhand because it was critical to their mutual cause.  Instead, it appeared to viewers that they were fighting as enemies.  As for Jon's motivation for joining the wildings...some might conclude that he, sadly, deserted the Night's Watch because he liked a girl...Bros before hos, Jon!!!  Aaahh so frustrating!

[Sandor's Hound]

I saw the show first before reading the book, and I quickly understood what was happening. It was kinda explained in the past episode as to why the Halfhand did what he did. He asked Ygritte what the Wildlings would do to him, Ygritte said killing him was the kindest thing they could do or something along that line. So they were probably gonna torture him. The Halfhand would rather die. He told Jon to act as their spy and that they would gain their trust if he did what needed to be done. He pushed him. Next episode, he attacks Jon. They duel, Jon kills him, and the whole thing was explained when the Halfhand said, "We are the Watchers on the Wall".

Edited by Lord Castamere, 30 July 2012 - 07:28 AM.

[Bran the Deciduous]

Lord Castamere, on 30 July 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

It was kinda explained in the past episode as to why the Halfhand did what he did. He asked Ygritte what the Wildlings would do to him, Ygritte said killing him was the kindest thing they could do or something along that line. So they were probably gonna torture him. The Halfhand would rather die. He told Jon to act as their spy and that they would gain their trust if he did what needed to be done. He pushed him. Next episode, he attacks Jon. They duel, Jon kills him, and the whole thing was explained when the Halfhand said, "We are the Watchers on the Wall".

Everyone understood what Qhorin was up to. When did you think Jon cottoned onto the plan though?

[Sandor's Hound]

When the Halfhand said

"We are the Watchers on the Wall".

[Bran the Deciduous]

Lord Castamere, on 30 July 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

When the Halfhand said

"We are the Watchers on the Wall".

RIGHT, so you think Jon's a murderer who who killed Qhorin in anger. That's what annoyed people. We all understood Qhorin's plan, it was, as you say, made perfectly clear in the earlier episodes.

[Khal Drogo's Mighty Thighs]

Er Jon Snow is not Rhaegar and Lyanna's secret child. Mormont's raven adamantly insisted that Jon was corn.

[Sandor's Hound]

Was the Raven even in the show?

[Bran the Deciduous]

The Balls of the Unsullied, on 31 July 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Was the Raven even in the show?

No, it wasn't. So the election might be a bit different.

[Aemrys]

The main problem with the whole Qhorin & Jon arc was that they had so little time together. Although brief, Qhorin did say that Jon needed to infiltrate the wildlings and would succeed in it if he did what needed to be done. However they ruined the fight and thus hurt Qhorin's reputation as an incredible fighter when they made Jon win without Ghost's help. But this is all about budget, so we just have to accept it although it sucks for Qhorin. It will really look weird if Mance questions how Jon could have possibly beat Qhorin like he did in the books. I guess they will just remove that question.

A complication with Jon's storyline, much as Sansa's, is that Jon's whole infiltration arc, both pre, during and post, is heavily dependent on inner dialogue. His has inner conflicts all the time, and it really hurt his arc in the show.

[Sandor's Hound]

The writers of the show are going to have a hard time...