246 replies to this topic

[Morvran]

They couldn't develop both Ygritte and Qhorin equally during the season, and I think they decided that Ygritte's story is more important for the show than Qhorin's.  I think this is particularly true for non-readers so they can then crush their souls right and proper next season (and if you think they're going to just have Jon find Ygritte with an arrow in her back you got another thing comin').  So Qhorin's section was stripped down to bare essentials.

Honestly, I'm fine with it.

[Versiroth]

SerMixalot, on 04 June 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Does anyone believe that Jon Show is the type of character to stand up to Stannis and Melisandre, beat the Thenns and defend the wall against Mance?

Absolutely.   Jon is my favorite character in the books and although they haven't really delved into his character much in the show, I don't believe they've compromised it at all.

[Hear me Meow]

turdle, on 04 June 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

obvious? please. i've watched it twice and at no point is it obvious that jon is on the same page. i'm giving the show the benefit of the doubt by saying that jon understood once he had already killed qhorin, but that look on his face could just as easily be the shock of knowing he had just murdered his fellow crow.

i agree qhorin did those things, and because you and i KNOW what qhorin is doing, we know what he wants. but i'm pretty sure jon snow has not read the song of ice and fire novels, so he has to put what qhorin says together in his head by himself, and the earliest that appears to happen is when long claw is siting inside qhorins belly.  jon seems legitimately angry when he is insulted, and it his rage seems to be the legitimate cause for him killing qhorin.  all it would have taken was one shot of jon seeming to recognize the weight of what qhorin was doing before he killed him for me to be on the same page, but it never happens.

I agree with this.

Obviously non-readers get that it was a ruse because Qhorin signposts his motivations very clearly.

What people miss is that it is not in anyway obvious that Jon understood the plan, until he had killed Qhorin. You would think he must have done given Qhorin's behaviour in episode eight but if you look at Jon's expression after he was pushed down the hill it is just pure befuddlement, not resignation, sadness, horror, disquiet etc. I actually thought Ygritte was onto the plan, whereas Jon wasn't, but apparently that wasn't true (silly Ygritte).

Jon's general stupidity this season also makes it plausible that he did not really understand Qhorin's intentions. In addition Qhorin has messed him around before, telling him the NW is important then saying its all just words so it is credible Jon was just confused by Qhorin's behaviour.

As others have pointed out the whole plan made no sense anyway given the changed circumstances so Jon Show cottoning on is even more unlikely.

[Reposado]

the craziest part was how random the attack was. the wildlings should have been "wait why does he think jon is a traitor?" there was no reason for halfhand to think that yet. really bizarre ending to a bizarrely plotted arc

[Versiroth]

Procopius, on 04 June 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

I agree with this.

Obviously non-readers get that it was a ruse because Qhorin signposts his motivations very clearly.

What people miss is that it is not in anyway obvious that Jon understood the plan, until he had killed Qhorin. You would think he must have done given Qhorin's behaviour in episode eight but if you look at Jon's expression after he was pushed down the hill it is just pure befuddlement, not resignation, sadness, horror, disquiet etc. I actually thought Ygritte was onto the plan, whereas Jon wasn't, but apparently that wasn't true (silly Ygritte).

Jon's general stupidity this season also makes it plausible that he did not really understand Qhorin's intentions. In addition Qhorin has messed him around before, telling him the NW is important then saying its all just words so it is credible Jon was just confused by Qhorin's behaviour.

As others have pointed out the whole plan made no sense anyway given the changed circumstances so Jon Show cottoning on is even more unlikely.

Sorry, but you're so far off base it's insane.  Regardless of what you thought you saw in Jon's face, it's blatantly obvious that the writers meant the character to be onto the plan.  So, you can say "Kit Harrington didn't express that well" (though I thought his expressions were spot on), but saying "Jon Snow in the show didn't know and murdered the half-hand in cold blood" is a ridiculous statement.  Especially given the conversation Qhorin and Jon had before Qhorin first shoved him and called him a traitor.

[dtones520]

turdle, on 04 June 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

it's one thing for the audience to understand what qhorin was doing, but it did not seem as though jon understood what qhorin was doing until he had already killed him, which is WAY too late.  there should have been a look of understanding at the first, not after all was said and done.  he's a murderer. jon snow the crow killer.

Qhorin tells Jon that one brother in the ranks of the Wildlings is worth 100 outside. Jon asks how they are ever going to believe him and Qhorin tells him that he must do what needs to be done and the yells about him being a traitors bastard and throws him down the ledge. Jon didn't really have much time to process what he meant.

Then Jon and Qhorin fight when they are getting close to Mances camp. Qhorin realizes this is his chance. Jon fights back because if he doesnt they will let Qhorin kill him. If Qhorin goes to the Wildings, they won't care that they killed some green kid, but Jon killing the legendary half hand is something the Wildlings would respect. When Jon kills him, and I'm pretty sure Qhorin let's him, he whispers to him part of the vows, which causes Jon to realize that "this is what he meant"

Most non book readers figured that out pretty easily. Those who I have spoke with who didn't realized pretty fast after I reminded them of the scene where Qhorin tells Jon he must do what needs be done. So, if the majority of non book readers understand, then it seems to me like book readers are again bitching because things didn't happen like in the book. Guess what? Non readers, again, understand the central plot. Shocking.

[turdle]

dtones520, on 04 June 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Qhorin tells Jon that one brother in the ranks of the Wildlings is worth 100 outside. Jon asks how they are ever going to believe him and Qhorin tells him that he must do what needs to be done and the yells about him being a traitors bastard and throws him down the ledge. Jon didn't really have much time to process what he meant.

Then Jon and Qhorin fight when they are getting close to Mances camp. Qhorin realizes this is his chance. Jon fights back because if he doesnt they will let Qhorin kill him. If Qhorin goes to the Wildings, they won't care that they killed some green kid, but Jon killing the legendary half hand is something the Wildlings would respect. When Jon kills him, and I'm pretty sure Qhorin let's him, he whispers to him part of the vows, which causes Jon to realize that "this is what he meant"

Most non book readers figured that out pretty easily. Those who I have spoke with who didn't realized pretty fast after I reminded them of the scene where Qhorin tells Jon he must do what needs be done. So, if the majority of non book readers understand, then it seems to me like book readers are again bitching because things didn't happen like in the book. Guess what? Non readers, again, understand the central plot. Shocking.

are you trying to argue against what i've been saying, because what you just wrote backs up what i've been saying all along. jon doesn't process the plan until he's killed qhorin, and qhorin says his line about being the watchers on the wall.  it's not a question of understanding the central plot, it's a question of motivation.  in jons head, what is his reason for killing qhorin half hand?  i suspect that most non-book readers like jon snow, so they give him the benefit of the doubt, and assume that he's in on the plan.

[Hear me Meow]

dtones520, on 04 June 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Qhorin tells Jon that one brother in the ranks of the Wildlings is worth 100 outside. Jon asks how they are ever going to believe him and Qhorin tells him that he must do what needs to be done and the yells about him being a traitors bastard and throws him down the ledge. Jon didn't really have much time to process what he meant.

Then Jon and Qhorin fight when they are getting close to Mances camp. Qhorin realizes this is his chance. Jon fights back because if he doesnt they will let Qhorin kill him. If Qhorin goes to the Wildings, they won't care that they killed some green kid, but Jon killing the legendary half hand is something the Wildlings would respect. When Jon kills him, and I'm pretty sure Qhorin let's him, he whispers to him part of the vows, which causes Jon to realize that "this is what he meant"

Most non book readers figured that out pretty easily. Those who I have spoke with who didn't realized pretty fast after I reminded them of the scene where Qhorin tells Jon he must do what needs be done. So, if the majority of non book readers understand, then it seems to me like book readers are again bitching because things didn't happen like in the book. Guess what? Non readers, again, understand the central plot. Shocking.

This post is hilarious.

I agree with you about everything but none of what you say supports the argument you think it does.

Just answer this, if Jon kills Qhorin and realizes only then what 'do what must be done means' he didn't kill him to prove himself a turncoat did he? Qhorin is unarmed when Jon kills him which means Jon is a murderer and has no excuse as he hadn't figured out Qhorin's plan.

Duh.

[Jerritus]

Versiroth, on 04 June 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

They just showed what Jon and Qhorin had talked about in the "previously on GoTs" and Qhorin told Jon that he must do what needs to be done.  He did as Qhorin instructed.

Jon killed Qhorin in a flash of rage, and after killing him understood what Qhorin had meant. They should have made Jon realize Qhorin's meaning first, and then have him kill him.

[bloodymime]

I hate complaining about the show because the show and the books are two separate things and I'm fine with that but it's hard to believe these guys making it as any kind of fans when they take one of the best minor characters like the Halfhand and just... completely butcher him. It was awful, there's no other way to put it. I knew it was going to be bad once they turned him into a chatterbox but I really didn't expect it to be this bad. There wasn't one single redeeming quality in that portrayal of Qhorin. Best just forget he ever existed in the show.

This also has nothing to do with the actor, besides lacking the height I thought he looked good for the part and could have done a good job capturing the Halfhand if they had let him.

Edited by bloodymime, 04 June 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[Hear me Meow]

Versiroth, on 04 June 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Sorry, but you're so far off base it's insane.  Regardless of what you thought you saw in Jon's face, it's blatantly obvious that the writers meant the character to be onto the plan.  So, you can say "Kit Harrington didn't express that well" (though I thought his expressions were spot on), but saying "Jon Snow in the show didn't know and murdered the half-hand in cold blood" is a ridiculous statement.  Especially given the conversation Qhorin and Jon had before Qhorin first shoved him and called him a traitor.

Sweet.

Sorry, but I'm having difficulty discerning much of an argument in your post. I don't think it is blatantly obvious the writers meant for us to assume Jon was in on the plan and I cited the same scene in support of this opinion as you produced for the contrary view.

The writers in that scene were showing us Qhorin's plan, nothing more.

In the show Jon's relationship with Qhorin is about Qhorin coming to understand what an irrational fool Jon Show is. The man is a total liability and would need help to take a shit in the woods. Qhorin gives him enough information to interpret his later actions (one brother on the inside, and so on) but he didn't trust him to carry out the plan of his own volition. Hence the goading, which worked, because Jon Show is pond life.

[Djinn]

Tv show Jon is a turncloak that killed Qhorin in a fit of rage, only to realize that he was baited to do it. The wildings a stupid in keeping thei prisioners and arming them for a personal duel. Guess Theon isn't so lonely now in the folish traitor regiment.

[turdle]

Procopius, on 04 June 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Sweet.

Sorry, but I'm having difficulty discerning much of an argument in your post. I don't think it is blatantly obvious the writers meant for us to assume Jon was in on the plan and I cited the same scene in support of this opinion as you produced for the contrary view.

The writers in that scene were showing us Qhorin's plan, nothing more.

In the show Jon's relationship with Qhorin is about Qhorin coming to understand what an irrational fool Jon Show is. The man is a total liability and would need help to take a shit in the woods. Qhorin gives him enough information to interpret his later actions (one brother on the inside, and so on) but he didn't trust him to carry out the plan of his own volition. Hence the goading, which worked, because Jon Show is pond life.

spot on.  the argument that jon did realize the plan ahead of time seems to be two fold,

1- assertion. jon knows. therefore he knows. i know he knows. he knows.
2- non readers by and large interpret jon to be in on the plan.

well great. i don't know how they got there given what we've seen, and i think they're giving jon too much credit, but hats off to them.

[victim]

Qhorin states that "one brother inside his army will be worth a thousand fighting against him." To this, Jon responds with "they'll never trust me."

How does that not clearly show that Jon understood what Qhorin was telling him? I think Jon's expressed shock was simply him realising that Qhorin knew what they were going to make him do. Just like the books, he did not understand the brevity of Qhorin's orders until after he had killed him.

Edited by victim, 04 June 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[turdle]

victim, on 04 June 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Qhorin states that "one brother inside his army will be worth a thousand fighting against him." To this, Jon responds with "they'll never trust me."

How does that not clearly show that Jon understood what Qhorin was telling him? I think Jon's expressed shock was simply him realising that Qhorin knew what they were going to him do. Just like the books, he did not understand the brevity of Qhorin's orders until after he had killed him.

that line clearly shows that jon understands that the plan is still to kill mance raider, but does not suggest that jon understands that qhorin means for jon to kill himself (qhorin).

[Versiroth]

Ananta, on 04 June 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Jon killed Qhorin in a flash of rage, and after killing him understood what Qhorin had meant. They should have made Jon realize Qhorin's meaning first, and then have him kill him.

Again, completely wrong.  They wouldn't have shown Qhorin telling Jon "You must do what must be done" on the "previous on" if they didn't mean the audience to figure it out that Qhorin wanted Jon to kill him.    Jon knew Qhorin wanted him to do something to prove himself to the wildlings and he may not have know just what until that moment, but I don't believe for a second that Jon killed Qhorin out of rage.

[Versiroth]

Procopius, on 04 June 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Sweet.

Sorry, but I'm having difficulty discerning much of an argument in your post. I don't think it is blatantly obvious the writers meant for us to assume Jon was in on the plan and I cited the same scene in support of this opinion as you produced for the contrary view.

The writers in that scene were showing us Qhorin's plan, nothing more.

In the show Jon's relationship with Qhorin is about Qhorin coming to understand what an irrational fool Jon Show is. The man is a total liability and would need help to take a shit in the woods. Qhorin gives him enough information to interpret his later actions (one brother on the inside, and so on) but he didn't trust him to carry out the plan of his own volition. Hence the goading, which worked, because Jon Show is pond life.

Well, you missed very blatant attempts by the writers to show you that Jon knew what Qhorin was doing.  And later, when he tells his black brothers "I was following the Half Hands orders", maybe then you can admit you were wrong.

[victim]

turdle, on 04 June 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

that line clearly shows that jon understands that the plan is still to kill mance raider, but does not suggest that jon understands that qhorin means for jon to kill himself (qhorin).

I disagree, Jon didn't know that Qhorin wanted to kill him immediately at that point, what he did realise was the Qhorin was going to get him to do something to prove himself, he just didn't know what. He realises after when Qhorin starts fighting him and pushes him down a hill, after he's been told "they might, if you do what must be done." In this episode, Jon realises the weight of that order.

Edited by victim, 04 June 2012 - 01:38 PM.

[dtones520]

turdle, on 04 June 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

are you trying to argue against what i've been saying, because what you just wrote backs up what i've been saying all along. jon doesn't process the plan until he's killed qhorin, and qhorin says his line about being the watchers on the wall.  it's not a question of understanding the central plot, it's a question of motivation.  in jons head, what is his reason for killing qhorin half hand?  i suspect that most non-book readers like jon snow, so they give him the benefit of the doubt, and assume that he's in on the plan.

His reason for killing Qhorin was that it was either kill or be killed. That's not murder. Jon knew Qhorin had a plan, he didn't realize that him letting Jon kill him was that plan until he killed him. If Jon does nothing, the Wildlings let Qhorin kill him.

[Jameson Snow]

Ok, so I've read ACOK and parts of ASOS. But are the White Walkers even a plot point next season? From what I've read, there's a couple of em here and there, but nothing about a big army of them bastards. Why did we spend the money and time on them if they aren't even going to be a huge concern in the near future? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm definitely a newbie! But mannn, Qhorin and Jon were sooo lame...

I was disappointed in every single story line of the finale. Except the Kingslayer's, I guess. And Arya.