[Book Spoilers] Ros/Varys business deal

[SerMixalot]

Loved that shot! And they held it relatively long.

which of course begs the question why this caught varys offguard!

he sits on th small council, he is the master of whispers yet he did not know LF was to receive harrenhall?????????

[SerMixalot]

and what did LF do to deserve Harrenhall?

he supposedly brought Tyrell and Lannister together

oops he was with RENLY when Renly was a usurper along with the Tyrells, he was on his way to Tywin Lannister when Renly died and the Tyrells went back to Joffrey

What exactly did he do again?

[Dragon greyscale]

Something occurred to me the other day with regards to Shae, and this might tie in with Ros' expanded role in S3. Don't you guys feel tv Shae seems much more genuinely affectionate towards Tyrion than book Shae? It made me wonder how the producers are going to be able to justify Tyrion killing her. In the books, she's a heartless golddigger who sleeps with whatever Lannister is in charge. That revelation justifies her death. With the 'real' love in the show, I honestly think the showrunners are taking a different route now:

Varys sends Ros to Tywin's bed much like Dany sent Doreah to XXD's bed; to gather information. Meanwhile Tywin condemns Tyrion for sleeping with a whore and he bans Shae from KL. Tyrion finds Tywin with Ros and is obviously furious because his father sent away his one true love AND he's a hypocrite. So Ros is the collateral damage instead of Shae?

Result: love relationship between Shae and Tyrion is intact, Tywin is still killed by Tyrion and Ros gets the fate that many here seem to wish for her (I personally find this sentiment a bit hyperbolic but whatever).

[protar]

I'm kind of torn. On the one hand I do feel we need to see the rivalry between Varys and LF in S3, especially with the material in KL being rather sparse in the first half of SOS. Ros is likely going to help in this role. However I would question the existence of a character who's narrative purpose only becomes apparent after two seasons. Looking at the character screen times (thank you HK47) Ros has had roughly 15 minutes of screen time this season, and we can assume she's had a similar amount last season (perhaps a bit more.). This might not seem like much, but there is so much they could've told in that extra half an hour. So it's good that she's getting story that could potentially stay true to the spirit of the books, but I would question her overall existence.

[tomabin]

I've a feeling Ros will have something to do with the:

purple wedding

.

[Castel]

I'm kind of torn. On the one hand I do feel we need to see the rivalry between Varys and LF in S3, especially with the material in KL being rather sparse in the first half of SOS. Ros is likely going to help in this role. However I would question the existence of a character who's narrative purpose only becomes apparent after two seasons. Looking at the character screen times (thank you HK47) Ros has had roughly 15 minutes of screen time this season, and we can assume she's had a similar amount last season (perhaps a bit more.). This might not seem like much, but there is so much they could've told in that extra half an hour. So it's good that she's getting story that could potentially stay true to the spirit of the books, but I would question her overall existence.

To be honest I think a lot of the fan community has jumped on Ros's "ascension" even though it's far more tenuous that say, Sansa's. Varys simply doesn't strike me as the type to have partners.

I guess it's interesting that she now has a purpose, but she has honestly been completely worthless throughout the show's run, even if I think her "purpose" is to validate her existence. But to be fair, Varys and LF's rivalry in the first season was something added- or at least expanded- to the show that I liked and perhaps Ros will now be useful there.

[teemo]

Yeah, I agree that Varys doesn't seem like the type to need a "partner," especially Ros. He has plenty of little birds that are trained for a very specific purpose, and his partner is Illyrio. Why would he want to risk getting into some kind of partnership with some random whore? Sure, she's upset with LF and all, but Varys deals with some very....secretive stuff. I'm not sure he'd entrust anything to Ros. It seems sort of beneath him.

Something occurred to me the other day with regards to Shae, and this might tie in with Ros' expanded role in S3. Don't you guys feel tv Shae seems much more genuinely affectionate towards Tyrion than book Shae? It made me wonder how the producers are going to be able to justify Tyrion killing her. In the books, she's a heartless golddigger who sleeps with whatever Lannister is in charge. That revelation justifies her death. With the 'real' love in the show, I honestly think the showrunners are taking a different route now:

Varys sends Ros to Tywin's bed much like Dany sent Doreah to XXD's bed; to gather information. Meanwhile Tywin condemns Tyrion for sleeping with a whore and he bans Shae from KL. Tyrion finds Tywin with Ros and is obviously furious because his father sent away his one true love AND he's a hypocrite. So Ros is the collateral damage instead of Shae?

Result: love relationship between Shae and Tyrion is intact, Tywin is still killed by Tyrion and Ros gets the fate that many here seem to wish for her (I personally find this sentiment a bit hyperbolic but whatever).

omg, no. please no. I can't take another X amount of seasons of Shae. Plus, that is way too big of a plot deviation.

[Raksha the Demon]

Though Ros' tits are pretty spectacular, I kind of grew tired of them as well, and thought she was getting way too much screentime. But I think they actually have a good reason for that.

There is sort of an unseen duel between Varys and Littlfinger the entire series, and much of that revolves around their competing networks of spies/informants/catspaws. While the "unseen" part of it works well in a book, I think it loses something when it is brought to the screen. Ros amounts to a symbol, an illustration, of that duel. It's a visual way of letting viewers know not to forget that apart from all the killings and open conflict, there is a bunch of unseen conflict hidden beneath the surface. Varys prying Ros away from Littlefinger's network makes that point very clear. If Ros goes to the Eyrie as well, then it will also be a way to show how Varys continues to be informed. Or, as was pointed out above, it may show how LIttlefinger's power base begins to slip when he goes to the Eyrie.

Anyway, that's how I see it. Like I said, until that scene, I was pretty sick of Ros. Now, she has a legitimate plot purpose that strengthens one of the more difficult aspects of trying to bring the novels to the screen.

I can only hope that with a legitimate plot purpose, Ros will keep her clothes on next season. But I'm probably being over-optimistic.

The main reason Ros annoys me is that there are only so many minutes of screen time they can allocate to the zillions of characters in the books (most of whom, including Chataya and Alayaya, are more interesting than Ros), and Ros, who is not even a book character, is stealing time they could have given to Jeyne Poole (who has an important role in future seasons in the arcs of the Boltons and Theon) or Sandor (who was marginalized in the show, some of his best lines, including his own story, given to Littlefinger) or even Patchface and Shireen and Damphair, etc.

I can only hope that Ros won't be accompanying Sansa to the Vale. Maybe she'll already be there as Lysa's maid and a double agent for Varys.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I don't think Varys is using the word "partner" in anything approaching a sense of equality, so I wouldn't get hung up on that particular word. He's not turning over his network of little birds, or all his secrets. He simply means that he's going to have a relationship with Ros where they both actually get something out of it, whereas LF seemed to motivate her mostly by threats.

[Mulled Wino]

and what did LF do to deserve Harrenhall?

he supposedly brought Tyrell and Lannister together

oops he was with RENLY when Renly was a usurper along with the Tyrells, he was on his way to Tywin Lannister when Renly died and the Tyrells went back to Joffrey

What exactly did he do again?

I thought he was there when Renly died. He fled from Stannis after renly died.

Im not totally 100% on that though.

[Izzbot]

I always felt that this scene was filmed to happen before the Tyrion/Ros/Cersei scene, but due to time-constraints they had to move it to the finale.

[wolverine]

Something occurred to me the other day with regards to Shae, and this might tie in with Ros' expanded role in S3. Don't you guys feel tv Shae seems much more genuinely affectionate towards Tyrion than book Shae? It made me wonder how the producers are going to be able to justify Tyrion killing her. In the books, she's a heartless golddigger who sleeps with whatever Lannister is in charge. That revelation justifies her death. With the 'real' love in the show, I honestly think the showrunners are taking a different route now:

Varys sends Ros to Tywin's bed much like Dany sent Doreah to XXD's bed; to gather information. Meanwhile Tywin condemns Tyrion for sleeping with a whore and he bans Shae from KL. Tyrion finds Tywin with Ros and is obviously furious because his father sent away his one true love AND he's a hypocrite. So Ros is the collateral damage instead of Shae?

Result: love relationship between Shae and Tyrion is intact, Tywin is still killed by Tyrion and Ros gets the fate that many here seem to wish for her (I personally find this sentiment a bit hyperbolic but whatever).

No, I don't. It seemed like in the book she genuinely liked Tyrion. When he met her she was a whore and seemed happy to be one. She would do whatever he wanted for money. For Tyrion's character development I feel it needs to be Shae betraying him with his father. But that does not mean they will go that direction. Their pet Tyrion, whom I feel is way more loveable on the show, will probably not be well received if he chokes Shae to death. The show actually seems to make the characters less gray and more black or white.

I am also one who feels Tyrion being very ugly is important to his character, rather than a pretty good looking guy like Dinklage.

[ChromeWeasel]

No, I don't. It seemed like in the book she genuinely liked Tyrion. When he met her she was a whore and seemed happy to be one. She would do whatever he wanted for money. For Tyrion's character development I feel it needs to be Shae betraying him with his father. But that does not mean they will go that direction. Their pet Tyrion, whom I feel is way more loveable on the show, will probably not be well received if he chokes Shae to death. The show actually seems to make the characters less gray and more black or white.

I am also one who feels Tyrion being very ugly is important to his character, rather than a pretty good looking guy like Dinklage.

GRRM mentions in one of his interviews that the book Tyrion is quite different than film Tyrion. As you mention, he's a relatively attractive midget in the film. In the books he's really more of a deformed man with crippled legs. He's got very strong arms and chest and a very large head, mounted on terribly short and crooked legs. And of course he's relatively ugly with mismatched eyes and eventually no nose. His deformity seems borderline supernatural in the books. I understand why that's not making it into the film though.

I don't like this version of Shae at all. She's relatively unattractive and she challenges Tyrion all the time rather than sucking up to him constantly. It's a very different angle they are going with.

[SelaBela]

If I'm remembering correctly, Shae doesn't suck up to him, she whines and wants jewels and clothes etc and he slaps her out of annoyance.

Dunno what your opinion of the actress's appearance has to do with anything, as it has nothing to do with her personality. But from what I've seen on here lately, lots of opinions of people's personalities are influenced by their looks which is really just fucking sad.

ETA: What I meant was, opinions of female characters personalities are influenced by their looks. Which is still sad.

[ChromeWeasel]

If I'm remembering correctly, Shae doesn't suck up to him, she whines and wants jewels and clothes etc and he slaps her out of annoyance.

Dunno what your opinion of the actress's appearance has to do with anything, as it has nothing to do with her personality. But from what I've seen on here lately, lots of opinions of people's personalities are influenced by their looks which is really just fucking sad.

ETA: What I meant was, opinions of female characters personalities are influenced by their looks. Which is still sad.

Shae in the books was described as very, very attractive. Shae in the story is not. Her personality is also very different. Those are two differnt things but they are both differences from the books.

[Dragon greyscale]

omg, no. please no. I can't take another X amount of seasons of Shae. Plus, that is way too big of a plot deviation.

Well, Ros isn't in the books so I assume we can expect some deviations anyway ;) Maybe I went a bit overboard but I still expect Shae's story to unfold differently, especially after the final ep. in which Shae basically tells Tyrion they should leave KL together and he should forget about his obligations of being a Lannister. THAT woman would voluntarily sleep with the Lannister patriarch? Just doesn't seem plausible.

[Morrigan]

I don't think you're remembering that correctly. The Unsullied are root and stem, not Varys.

No, Varys is referred to as a "cockless wonder" at some point.

[Net-Viper X]

Varys is definately Root and Stem in the show, not only did it make that clear in the Ros scene, but the whole discussion with Shittlefinger about "do you lay awake at night fearing my gash?" also made it pretty clear he was meant to be "smooth shaved" down stairs.

In the books I'm not so sure and actually lean towards him not being cut at all, since at one point he is described as having rough stubble on his face, and that would be impossible if he had been castrated as a child and never had puberty. He wouldn't have a deep voice either if cut as a child, he would still have a childs voice.

[Demonblade]

Something occurred to me the other day with regards to Shae, and this might tie in with Ros' expanded role in S3. Don't you guys feel tv Shae seems much more genuinely affectionate towards Tyrion than book Shae? It made me wonder how the producers are going to be able to justify Tyrion killing her. In the books, she's a heartless golddigger who sleeps with whatever Lannister is in charge. That revelation justifies her death. With the 'real' love in the show, I honestly think the showrunners are taking a different route now:

Varys sends Ros to Tywin's bed much like Dany sent Doreah to XXD's bed; to gather information. Meanwhile Tywin condemns Tyrion for sleeping with a whore and he bans Shae from KL. Tyrion finds Tywin with Ros and is obviously furious because his father sent away his one true love AND he's a hypocrite. So Ros is the collateral damage instead of Shae?

Result: love relationship between Shae and Tyrion is intact, Tywin is still killed by Tyrion and Ros gets the fate that many here seem to wish for her (I personally find this sentiment a bit hyperbolic but whatever).

Well first let me say that I really don't understand the widely-held disdain for Roz. She is the physical representation of the political intrigue and corruption underlying everthing else going on, something which could easily get pushed aside in the minds of those who haven't read the books. She could generously be described as the simplification of several minor characters to as to make the plot easier to digest, but admittedly we could also disregard her as a mere HBO prop devise, as it wouldn't be an HBO show if there weren't at least a great pair of tits in the episode, it seems. But even as a plot devise she serves a purpose because when one sees her and her fabulous breasts, she is associated with something else you should need to know. I quite like her, because I can't imagine the alternatives in explaining some of the shit that gets shown when she's on screen, and what else would have to get cut in order to make up for the lost screen time.

As to her expanded role, after a recent rewatch I started to think that maybe Roz could be the book-Shae who betrays him at trial, and as a final insult, Tyrion is betrayed by his so-called love in TV-Shae, and ultimately kills her. Because Roz isn't just the merging of Chataya and Alayaya, but, for me at least, she looks like how I imagined book-Shae to be, and behaves like her in some ways, too. Say what you will about Roz as a character and her relevance to the whole picture, but one thing that you have to give her is that she really seems to like her job as a whore, just like book-Shae. Her appearance in Tyrion's trial could be a means to divy up the whore betrayal, so to speak. Because when you think about it, book-Tyrion really was in love with book-Shae, and didn't need the whole "AAAND YOU ARE FUCKING MY DAD?! WTF?"-moment as the final tipping point, imo.

No, I don't. It seemed like in the book she genuinely liked Tyrion. When he met her she was a whore and seemed happy to be one. She would do whatever he wanted for money. For Tyrion's character development I feel it needs to be Shae betraying him with his father. But that does not mean they will go that direction. Their pet Tyrion, whom I feel is way more loveable on the show, will probably not be well received if he chokes Shae to death. The show actually seems to make the characters less gray and more black or white.

Well taking Tyrion down a darker path is inevitable, regardless of what HBO feels about him. But it still could be her that Tyrion kills, because if she is shown to apparently have some genuine feelings for Tyrion, well, crimes of passion happen all of the time, leaving enough betrayal to heap on Tyrion elsewhere, like Roz. There are few things as black and white in storytelling than crimes of passion. Having Roz as Tyrion's trial whore-betrayer serves an added purpose to illustrate that there are more schemes at play in Tyrion's trial than Cersei's.

Well, Ros isn't in the books so I assume we can expect some deviations anyway ;) Maybe I went a bit overboard but I still expect Shae's story to unfold differently, especially after the final ep. in which Shae basically tells Tyrion they should leave KL together and he should forget about his obligations of being a Lannister. THAT woman would voluntarily sleep with the Lannister patriarch? Just doesn't seem plausible.

If she is entirely truthful in that exchange, you mean, but I agree, that last scene makes it seem somewhat implausible that TV-Shae would sleep with Tywin. But that could be the point, in making us believe that she really did love Tyrion, something that even Tyrion didn't really believe in the books, IIRC.