(Book Spoilers) Foreshadowing and Symbolism in Episode 10

[Fragile Bird]

Episode 10 was the last episode for Season 2, so what were the 2 Ds trying to secretly tell the book reader and the TV viewer? What did you pick up, all you trained Westerosi residents, that maybe other people may have missed? Or, what confused you?

As much as I was disappointed by the HotU scene, I loved the fact that Dany walked into a destroyed throne room, with snow falling down and obliterating everything. Surely even the TV watcher should catch that! And, more important to me the book reader, was the fact that Dany gets so close to the throne, but doesn't actually touch it or even sit in it. What distracts her? Crying - and I couldn't tell if it was still her dragons, or was it supposed to be the baby? I think it was the dragons. And then she so obviously walks out of a gate in the Wall!

What did you see?

[jons nissa]

from my post in the house of the undying thread:

Gogossos, on 04 June 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

What they totally, totally failed to do was wink at us book fans. A flower at the Wall, a cloth dragon, etc. things that don't, and shouldn't, make much sense to a non-book viewer or alert them. That keeps both sides happy and it is this aspect that worries me about this year's adaptation.

jon's nissa

i think they did throw book viewers a bone. when dany sees her son in the book, he has her color hair. there's no reason for her baby not having that color hair in the show. i think that is a clear statement that targaryans can have dark hair and puts more fuel on the fire or r+l=j. i've seen some speculate that it's jon himself since she doesn't act motherly around him - just looks on. that is probably a stretch but i think this scene helps support a theory you would only know if you read the books. could they have done more? of course. but everything has to help non-viewers understand the story so in the long run this scene works for both readers and non-readers.

Rangers, on 04 June 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

If everyone could take a step back and actually look at this scene for what it was, it actually showed a lot of stuff.

First off, notice the throne room's condition. The floor level is covered in snow and ICE while the roof looks to be burnt, as if by FIRE. Um hello? ICE and FIRE anyone?

Second, the Iron Throne is covered in snow. Dany observes it, hears her dragons, then follows their cries to the next area which is... The Wall?! Hmmm the throne covered in snow and the scene immediately following that is at the wall. Jon Snow come to anyone's mind? Could be nothing, or could be something much more

jon's nissa

i agree. the first thing i started wondering about was why the throne room looked the way it did. is this after her dragons have arrived or before she even shows up? does the fact that she doesn't touch the throne or sit on it foreshadow anything? having her leave the red keep and arrive at the wall is clearly a hint of what will happen when she finally arrives in westeros. will she arrive in king's landing only to find it ruined and told the enemy is at the wall and head north? or does it mean she will find her "family" on the other side of the wall where jon happens to be?

[Pellaeon]

I'm not sure if this scence, I won't call it vision, is realy relating to the books, I doubt it. It's more likely a poor try of showing/combining the book visions. It's highly unlikely that GRRM tell them what he gonna do, so they can spoiler us that hard

[Fragile Bird]

I have read Linda's thread and have "liked" her OP, but I also remind myself constantly of what people kept beating me over the head with as the Harry Potter movies progressed - the movies are not the books.

I was really sad we didn't see the book's version of the HotU, I was looking forward to the presentation of the visions. That none of them were there was startling, to say the least. But I watched the episode three times last night and each time I saw Dany I enjoyed it more. Once I could divorce my brain from the book. My straightforward initial reading was that she is the one who will destroy KL, but Jon Snow is the one who will be king, and she will look for him at the wall. What threw me for a loop was seeing Drogo and the baby. It never crossed my mind the baby could be Jon, and I just don't accept that. I think the two of them are dead and together. I thought perhaps this was dark magic meant to try to keep her in the HotU, that she was so weak seeing Drogo and the baby would send her over the edge and trap her there.

I think that there have been many complaints about Dany's boring POVs, and the Dans have decided they will parcel out the HotU visions in some other ways, to beef up her scenes in Season 3.

[Howdyphillip]

What happened in the HotU on the series is in some ways as important to me as what happened in the books. Let me start this off by making a disclaimer. There is absolutely no way that this show could have possibly done justice to the visions in my head from reading the chapter. I read it again yesterday in anticipation of the show, and about a quarter of the way through, I realized that it just couldn't really be effectively translated to a large audience. The back story hasn't been set up in the show, and the images would either reveal too much of what is to come, or be completely meaningless to an average viewer.

That said, what did happen there seemed to be very consistent with what we know about the character of Daenerys.The two most character defining things about her is that she wants her heritage and inheritance of the Iron Throne, and she wants to be loved and accepted. These are themes that have been hit on over and over in the books, and seem to be the major motivations for the character,

Yet what we see here is the denying of the things that she wants. She approaches the throne and just as she is about to grab hold, she leaves only to find herself in the arms of the one man that she truly loves and who loved her. Not only is he there, but her little Prince is there with him making it all the more difficult to walk away and leave.

What does she leave for? The cries of her children. Her dragons need her, and she sets aside all of her hopes and dreams to rescue them, only to be rescued by them in turn. This is a clarification of her as a character, and explains the reasons why she makes the decisions she makes later in the books. Why does she stay in Mereen? It is to protect what she believe to be her children.

I have little doubt that this character trait is being highlighted for a reason. When she finally makes it to Westeros, I am sure she will be faced with similar choices.

[Bearsblood8]

I think it's likely that the HOTU scene was meant to provide various forms of temptations to keep Dany in the HOTU, but if that was the only point, why have her enter a desolate and destroyed throne room? Wouldn't it have been more tempting to have a throne room full of adoring subjects? For this reason, I must believe D&D used the HOTU visions for prophecy as well.

[Fragile Bird]

What happened in the HotU on the series is in some ways as important to me as what happened in the books. Let me start this off by making a disclaimer. There is absolutely no way that this show could have possibly done justice to the visions in my head from reading the chapter. I read it again yesterday in anticipation of the show, and about a quarter of the way through, I realized that it just couldn't really be effectively translated to a large audience. The back story hasn't been set up in the show, and the images would either reveal too much of what is to come, or be completely meaningless to an average viewer.

<snip for space>

That said, what did happen there seemed to be very consistent with what we know about the character of Daenerys.The two most character defining things about her is that she wants her heritage and inheritance of the Iron Throne, and she wants I have little doubt that this character trait is being highlighted for a reason. When she finally makes it to Westeros, I am sure she will be faced with similar choices.

Very well said, IMHO.

[Crown]

Somehow I thought it was ash and not snow.

[Tyrion_is_Omar]

Somehow I thought it was ash and not snow.

Some fans thinks that was snow, others that was ashes. Im not sure.

But, If it was ash. I don`t think that means that Danny is going to win the throne. If they would have wanted to show that Danny is going to win the throne, they would have showed fire(danny`s element) and not ashes . Ashes is the thing after the fire and the fact that those ashes were so similar to the snow makes me wonder.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

To me it's was clearly snow.

[irishtemper]

Thinking back on it, I had never thought of it in this way ever from just the books....but could any of the three mounts of Dany not be a person or animal.

Could the mount to dread be the iron throne?

Then it cut to Drogo who was the mount to bed, and then it goes to the wall where the mount to love could be located?

[Lord Varys]

Not sure if that kind of 'symbolism' is supposed to mean anything deep. Snow in the abandoned throne room obviously can mean all and nothing. All meaning say, if you don't come back in time, promised prince/Azor Ahai (which you are technically not in this series), there won't be any kingdoms left for you.

Nothing meaning nice picture without any meaning at all.

Exiting the throne room into the snows beyond the Wall could have meant a great deal - if Dany had met Jon Snow there, stating something cryptic. Instead she meets Drogo there, who has no place whatsoever in this kind of environment. Period.

There is made no connection between the dragons or Dany's role as savior in the war against the Others.

[Fragile Bird]

Did anyone read Theon's speech to his men, his telling them though they will die their names will be remembered forever, as ironic foreshadowing of Theon's transformation to Reek? Not to mention the fact I am assuming they will all be slaughtered by Ramsay. Do you believe that Ramsay will kill all the Iron born, irrespective of the promise to let them go home? or would HBO change that?

[Qwop22]

GRRM have told D&D how his saga will end, and the key plot points on the journey. That is known for a fact. So these visions were clearly ran by GRRM before they were put into the show. Who knows, maybe GRRM even had a hand in what they would look like? We know GRRM loves to go over things and rework them to try and reach perfection, which is why he takes so long to finish a book. If I had to guess, I would say he wanted to redo some of those HotU scenes, and chose to make new ones for the show. He may even be dropping some new clues for us hardcore fans and be hinting at how the song will end. Even though the show prophecies were not as insane and trippy as the books; and there were only three, a lot can still be taken away from those three scenes. It leaves a lot up to interpretation. I mean just look now, some people can't even make up their minds on whether or not it was snow or ash falling in the throne room. So many theories will sprout from those few minutes. Seeing as how the show left out a lot of information on Rhaegar and Lyanna, I am not surprised that one was left out. The scene of a king with a wolves head would have been too blunt.

Dany will never get the iron throne?

Dany will burn KL to the ground with her unruly dragons?

The Starks (snow falling) will take the iron throne and rule?

Jon will take the iron throne?

Jon will become Dany's new Khal Drogo, which is why that vision was beyond the wall?

Dany will head beyond the wall to fight the Great Other?

Dany will die fighting the great Other?

Dany will be reunited with Drogo when she dies?

The son in the scene had black hair, is it Jon?

and so on...

[dreamcatcher]

I interpreted it this way:

Jon Snow will lead a wrecked Westeros (snow in the throne room)

She will want to be a queen instead (wanting to touch the throne), or maybe she'll want Jon himself?

Then she'll be distracted by going beyond the Wall.

Where she'll die. (while giving birth to a dark-haired child? by Jon? This is really stretching it. But she'll die nonetheless.)

The end?

Also, why did she say when the rivers run dry... Isn't the seas? Everybody thought it was the Dothraki sea?

[UselessOpinion]

I looked at her venture into the throne room as both being a temptation and as a revelation of what is to come. They could just have easily have put the tent with her child out in the Dothraki Sea, but instead they chose to put it out in the north, and there's significance to that.

I kind of see it as a vision into the future: she sees what will happen when the Long Night finally comes.

[Fragile Bird]

Not sure if that kind of 'symbolism' is supposed to mean anything deep. Snow in the abandoned throne room obviously can mean all and nothing. All meaning say, if you don't come back in time, promised prince/Azor Ahai (which you are technically not in this series), there won't be any kingdoms left for you.

Nothing meaning nice picture without any meaning at all.

Exiting the throne room into the snows beyond the Wall could have meant a great deal - if Dany had met Jon Snow there, stating something cryptic. Instead she meets Drogo there, who has no place whatsoever in this kind of environment. Period.

There is made no connection between the dragons or Dany's role as savior in the war against the Others.

Oh, I don't have any doubt the snow in the throne room was meant to have meaning. As well as the fact that Dany never as much as touches the throne.

And as Holafernando Torres (lol, Euro 2012 names are killing me) says, she turns away from both the throne and her beloved Drogo to find and rescue her children, her dragons. And since she ends up at the wall, it must foreshadow her going there. I don't believe all visions will come true, but surely most of the posters here seem to think that's where the big battle will be in the end.

[ARYa_Nym]

I believe that Dany and Drogo will go to the Night Lands together. He's waiting for her. MMD's accidental prophecy/curse will have been fulfilled after she perhaps dies in childbirth.

I wonder if KL will get destroyed?

Perhaps Snow being on the iron throne means alludes to Jon sitting on it or it could mean that winter/the Others will reach it.

[Lord Elrosir]

Thinking back on it, I had never thought of it in this way ever from just the books....but could any of the three mounts of Dany not be a person or animal.

Could the mount to dread be the iron throne?

Then it cut to Drogo who was the mount to bed, and then it goes to the wall where the mount to love could be located?

I would've thought the mount to dread was Drogon, the reborn Balerion the Black Dread.

[turdle]

my first impression, was that it was ash in the throne room, it's hard to say for sure. it could easily be snow, but i'm still leaning toward ash since they took such efforts to describe what happened to harrenhal a couple of episodes ago, and the roof appears to have been burned open much like harrenhal. my interpretation of this is a bit of a warning to dany, in that, trying to take the iron throne will destroy the realm.