155 replies to this topic

[tearloch]

Clariana, on 06 June 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

Thanks Ayra. Well the image speaks to me http://oi48.tinypic.com/2rc1o38.jpg That's a blue flower inset on a flame colour rosette upon a window the colour of winter. I'll happily take that as a proxy for the blue rose...

The reason I don't mind the blue flower missing is that it has not been introduced anywhere in the show.  It is meaningless to the show audience.  Heck, I read the series twice before I came on here and learned that the blue rose is some kind of super symbol.  Even going back and reading it a third time, I still read snippets about it and shrug....  In the end, as long as the show and the books end up at the same points, I don't think it really matters.  Some parts of the books will be better, due in large part to the amount of back story that we get in the books, but quite honestly, some parts of the show will be better.  For instance, I think how D&D handled Arya this season was brilliant.  Sure, we missed hot weasel soup.  But I think the show has given her more reason to use the coin and go to the Faceless men than the book did (which was really a leap of faith on her part, having no idea what she was in for).  No she will be on a mission of vengenence, instead of a lost child running from a war that just happens to fall in with an assassin training school.

[Strider]

A year ago I wrote the following on this forum:

Quote

Do not trust the prophecies. They deceive, they mislead. Like all the religions in this world, the prophesies are but the imaginative inventions of a humanity that craves a transcendence that does not exist. Ultimately religion is aligned with death and empowered by propitiation and murder. Azor Ahai creates Lightbringer by slaying his wife. R'hilor and the Great Other are not two distinct deities: they will turn out to be the same God. Light is darkness; darkness is light. Fire is ice; ice, fire. Humanity is doomed. The Others win. The dragons win. It doesn't matter. There is only suffering and death.

Now I admit I was in a pessimistic mood at the time.  I also wrote in that comment that I think Martin is deconstructing the fantasy genre.  I may be wrong about this, and I'm less confident about it now than I was a year ago; but for the moment I'm sticking with my opinion.  The prophesies are in Martin's fictional world because people in that world invent them to give themselves hope in a world that is doomed to suffering, failure, and death.  They are always ambiguous enough to allow any sort of interpretation.  They cannot be disproven.  But they can be used to manipulate, as we see with Meleisandre.  And the prophesies are in Martin's fictional world because that's what fantasy readers want, because that is an expectation of the genre Martin is deconstructing.  We love to spend hours and hours trying to decipher them.  We want to believe they truly foretell the future, just as Stannis wants to believe, just as Meleisandre wants to believe, just like most people want to believe.  

The strongest objection to my theory, though, is greensight.  Do the greenseers really see the future?

[Faceless Sam]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 04 June 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

To me it's was clearly snow.

winter is coming, yo.

[dreamcatcher]

Clariana, on 06 June 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

Thanks Ayra. Well the image speaks to me

http://oi48.tinypic.com/2rc1o38.jpg

That's a blue flower inset on a flame colour rosette upon a window the colour of winter.  I'll happily take that as a proxy for the blue rose...

This is not a blue rose, it's just random window decoration. See this photo of Ned with the same window behind him:

http://static.tvfana...oom_518x306.jpg

I love the theory that Stannis will be the king of Others.

Edited by dreamcatcher, 06 June 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[Fragile Bird]

Britanicus, on 06 June 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Hodor.

Welcome to Westeros, Britanicus, first post!  Do you feel braver now that you've taken the plunge?  I hope so!   I hope you participate in every section of the forum, and as I say to everyone, keep a sense of humour!  It can be your best friend.  Hodor!

[Fragile Bird]

Strider, on 06 June 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

A year ago I wrote the following on this forum:

Now I admit I was in a pessimistic mood at the time.  I also wrote in that comment that I think Martin is deconstructing the fantasy genre.  I may be wrong about this, and I'm less confident about it now than I was a year ago; but for the moment I'm sticking with my opinion.  The prophesies are in Martin's fictional world because people in that world invent them to give themselves hope in a world that is doomed to suffering, failure, and death.  They are always ambiguous enough to allow any sort of interpretation.  They cannot be disproven.  But they can be used to manipulate, as we see with Meleisandre.  And the prophesies are in Martin's fictional world because that's what fantasy readers want, because that is an expectation of the genre Martin is deconstructing.  We love to spend hours and hours trying to decipher them.  We want to believe they truly foretell the future, just as Stannis wants to believe, just as Meleisandre wants to believe, just like most people want to believe.  

The strongest objection to my theory, though, is greensight.  Do the greenseers really see the future?

I guess the answer to that is "bittersweet".  Think of the misery people went through in the dark ages, and pretty well every period after that. Um, before that, too.  Somewhere along the way, someone first said the words "Life's a bitch and then you die", something I quote quite often.  But my personal guiding principle has always been "When life hands you a bowl of lemons, make lemonade".  GRRM is going to show us a pretty grim picture of the human condition,  but he is also (I hope and trust) going to show us how people deal with it.  And there certainly seem to be prophets in his world that we need to pay attention to.

And yes, I think the greenseers do actually see things we don't.

[BigWilleyStyle]

dreamcatcher, on 06 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

This is not a blue rose, it's just random window decoration. See this photo of Ned with the same window behind him:

http://static.tvfana...oom_518x306.jpg

I love the theory that Stannis will be the king of Others.

So does anyone have any theory why that Window seemed to be highlighted in Dany's vision. The director made sure that Dany was focused on it when she entered the throne room.  Everything else was either burnt or covered with Snow

[atia-]

Sorry that I haven't read through all of this and don't know if it's been mentioned, but what about Ros grabbing Varys' junk to find nothing there?  Do you think this totally debunks the theory that Varys is pretending to be a eunuch?

[Brave Danny Flint]

zuziako, on 05 June 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

PEOPLE

It's not that complicated. Dany reaches for the Throne, which is what she really wants, but  she hears her dragons, has a moment of doubt, but goes to them, and leaves the throne. The scene with Drogo is the same -  she is about to loose herself in this perfect dream but she hears her dragons again- and leaves Drogo. It's a test. A test which proves dragons are more important to her than the throne and her marriage. She chooses them over everything else and she doesn't allow herself to get lost along the way. She is the Mother of Dragons.

And yeah, the throne room is a ruin which may point to the fact that by the time she'll reach it Westeros will be in ruin as well. But it may also show how destructive her actions in the future may be. As for the Wall, it may mean that it's a destination she's bound to appear in. The scene rises it significance. But I wouldn't dwell on it all. The truth is the visions in the tv-show don't really tell much.

I agree the tv show is giving viewers just enough of a carrot to dangle with Dany's HoTU visions without making it too complicated for people who have not read the books.

A Song of Ice and Fire: what this means with Jon and Dany, the connection with Dany and The Wall and Jon, her eventual return to Westeros is still just as speculated by fans 5 books in. We still have no actual concrete evidence of anything that will unfold.....yet and that is 16 years of reading. In the tv show The HoTU, less than 5 minutes of an entire scene, cannot support the sheer weight of Dany's visions in the books. The show has had to strip a lot of things out in so many other areas to get to the point and move the plot forward, with enough exposition to allow viewers to keep up with multiple story lines.

The HoTU would have always been a difficult scene to bring to life, not least because the visions Dany sees have not been explained, or revealed yet, by any other characters/stories, within the current 20 episodes. The viewers that have not read the books would have found this hard to relate to without a back story or a bigger perspective of the immediate history of Westeros (during and prior to Robert's rebellion). I think D&D have done just enough with the HoTU scene to alert viewers of Dany's significance in the outcome of Westeros. I don't think D&D gambled/made a rash decision on it. I also don't completely put all of my stock by it.

Sorry if I waffled, the ultimate point I am making is that the tv-show doesn't reveal anything that we (the fans of the book) haven't already speculated and possibly figured out as yet. What it did do was hammer home to viewers, who haven't read the book, to re-identify Daenerys Targaryen with Westeros and, possibly, what her role in its future will be.

[Dunnii]

that window decoration in King's Landing is also fire and ice (blue and red).

[ARYa_Nym]

I saw a new interpretation on tumblr:

Quote

Dany can’t be on the Iron Throne without SNOW…

she has to go to the Wall in order to meet him…

and in him she will find what she thought she had lost forever (symbolized by Drogo and Rhaego)

So romantic!
Credit:http://missingthebetterhalfofme.tumblr.com/post/24476548753

[jarl the climber]

Strider, on 06 June 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

A year ago I wrote the following on this forum:



Now I admit I was in a pessimistic mood at the time.  I also wrote in that comment that I think Martin is deconstructing the fantasy genre.  I may be wrong about this, and I'm less confident about it now than I was a year ago; but for the moment I'm sticking with my opinion.  The prophesies are in Martin's fictional world because people in that world invent them to give themselves hope in a world that is doomed to suffering, failure, and death.  They are always ambiguous enough to allow any sort of interpretation.  They cannot be disproven.  But they can be used to manipulate, as we see with Meleisandre.  And the prophesies are in Martin's fictional world because that's what fantasy readers want, because that is an expectation of the genre Martin is deconstructing.  We love to spend hours and hours trying to decipher them.  We want to believe they truly foretell the future, just as Stannis wants to believe, just as Meleisandre wants to believe, just like most people want to believe.  

The strongest objection to my theory, though, is greensight.  Do the greenseers really see the future?

I think greensight is more rationaly based. Predictions about the future are derived from a more perfect understanding of what happened in the past.

[Howdyphillip]

BigWilleyStyle, on 06 June 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

So does anyone have any theory why that Window seemed to be highlighted in Dany's vision. The director made sure that Dany was focused on it when she entered the throne room.  Everything else was either burnt or covered with Snow

That is your imagination the camera is not at all focused on the window in this shot. The focus point is on the back of Emilia Clark's head. You and others are probably drawn to it because of the contrasting colors.

If the director was really trying to portray a character noticing something, then they would have put a tight focus on that thing they were noticing .

Edited by Holafernando Torres, 06 June 2012 - 08:01 PM.

[Fragile Bird]

Good point.

[Zod]

Direwolf Lager, on 04 June 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

i think D&D are too dumb to foreshadow material that may appear in the Winds of Winter or A Dream of Spring. by the way season 2 was shot, i doubt GRRM told them any of the major plot points that still havent been revealed in the novels

What are you talking about? D&D are one of the few people that know how the series will end.

[Jayce]

First impression:

The others will take over Westeros, at least as far as Kings Landing - Thats what the ruined throne room with snow coming down made me think of. I wondered if it was snow or ash, and looked for this in the last scene before she turns away from the throne, the background is definitely snow and not ash (imho).

Dany will not rule Westeros - Thats what her not touching the Iron Throne made me think of.

Dany will die north of the wall - thats what the tent with Drogo and her son made me think of.

After reading most of the posts here I missed some other hints, one being that the snow in the Throne room hints at the Starks ruling (well Jon) but I'm not sure of that. I am convinced it was snow as I specifically looked for this in the scene. I also missed the warning about taking the throne will destroy westeros, but then I think the Others will do this.

I'm very glad they changed this scene from the books, I think the book scenes would of made some things way too obvious or been completely lost in translation. These new scenes were like water to dying man (one in a desert, dying of thirst), glad to have something new to think of before the next book is out!

[Hoya Karsa Orlong]

Holafernando Torres, on 06 June 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

That is your imagination the camera is not at all focused on the window in this shot. The focus point is on the back of Emilia Clark's head. You and others are probably drawn to it because of the contrasting colors.

If the director was really trying to portray a character noticing something, then they would have put a tight focus on that thing they were noticing .

I agree that the blue 7 pointed star is probably just coincidence.  It is the front window to the right of throne (when facing the throne) and as pointed out has always been blue.  The one behind the throne has a red center - you can see it in blackwater when Cer and Tom are waiting on the throne.  But it is odd that it was the only window unbroken in Danys vision when all the others appear destoryed.  So I would like to think they left it in as a bit of fan service, but it is not supposed to be cannon (for either the show or the books).

[Hoya Karsa Orlong]

zuziako, on 05 June 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

PEOPLE

It's not that complicated. Dany reaches for the Throne, which is what she really wants, but  she hears her dragons, has a moment of doubt, but goes to them, and leaves the throne. The scene with Drogo is the same -  she is about to loose herself in this perfect dream but she hears her dragons again- and leaves Drogo. It's a test. A test which proves dragons are more important to her than the throne and her marriage. She chooses them over everything else and she doesn't allow herself to get lost along the way. She is the Mother of Dragons.

And yeah, the throne room is a ruin which may point to the fact that by the time she'll reach it Westeros will be in ruin as well. But it may also show how destructive her actions in the future may be. As for the Wall, it may mean that it's a destination she's bound to appear in. The scene rises it significance. But I wouldn't dwell on it all. The truth is the visions in the tv-show don't really tell much.

I get this point generally, but something still does not sit right with me about the visions.  This is the first time D&D have foreshadowed something that happens in future on the TV show for something major that has not happened in the books.  If the visions were just traps/test to keep her at the HOTU then why show the Drogo in a hut north of the wall?  Dany has never been there, does not know what the wall looks like. Why not just a hut in the Dothraki sea where she was arguably happiest with Drogo? It was choice to pick north of the wall.  The strong implication being she will go there at some point.  Although it seems obvious that she will have to go there - I am not sure I can think of any book prophecy that says she does.  Further, she repeats the MMD curse/prophecy (changing it to "rivers" instead of "sea" and leaving out the when your womb quickens and bear a living child part again- I still dont know why).  So in my mind either the vision does mean something more than just - the Wall is important to Dany (which is arguably outside the books still) - or its just not the greatest storytelling.

Similiarly - for the Red Keep.  Dany has not seen or realistically ever remember being there.  If the goal was to show her that her greatest desire (reclaiming her birthright) was literally not worth pursuing so stay at the lovely HOTU - then why show it ruined instead of filled with a vision of her mad father burning ned starks dad which would make the throne repugnant and still be closer to the book?  Conversely should it not have been gorgeous with the people of Westoros chanting her name if it was supposed to entice her to stay?  So I think the vision means something beyond the HOTU trap.  My view is they used the HOTU visions to reinforce to viewers that the true battle is north of the wall and the iron throne is pointless - echoing the next scene with the White Walking Dead at the fist.

In sum, I do think the visions work well for the TV show, I think they are foreshadowing/prophecy.  I think they are not cannon to the books.

Somewhat tangential - Overall I still think that the story cant be Dany + Jon as king and queen of westeros defending the realm against the others while Frodo Bran throws the ring of power in to Mt. Doom wargs into the land of always winter to defeat the heart of winter.  My wild ass guess is I think Dany is much more destructive than she thinks and everything she touches turns to ash eventually.  Ice and Fire fight, but not to protect the realm but to consume it, which they largely do.  Davos and Rickon emerge from Skagos to repopulate the world where magic has consumed itself, leaving the world empty for man.

[FiveByeSeven]

This is going to be a non-House of the Undying post, since the thread name covers the whole episode.

When Maester Luwin advised Theon, "you're not the man you're pretending to be. Not yet," I got chills. Brilliant foreshadowing for the next dark chapter in Theon's arc.

[Fragile Bird]

FiveByeSeven, on 07 June 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

This is going to be a non-House of the Undying post, since the thread name covers the whole episode.

When Maester Luwin advised Theon, "you're not the man you're pretending to be. Not yet," I got chills. Brilliant foreshadowing for the next dark chapter in Theon's arc.

Yes, that's what I thought too.  The beauty of the statement, like all great foreshadowing, is that it can be just taken at face value.  Hopefully some viewers who haven't read the books will remember it next year.  But I bet they show the comment in start-of-season 3 re-caps.