155 replies to this topic

[zuziako]

PEOPLE

It's not that complicated. Dany reaches for the Throne, which is what she really wants, but  she hears her dragons, has a moment of doubt, but goes to them, and leaves the throne. The scene with Drogo is the same -  she is about to loose herself in this perfect dream but she hears her dragons again- and leaves Drogo. It's a test. A test which proves dragons are more important to her than the throne and her marriage. She chooses them over everything else and she doesn't allow herself to get lost along the way. She is the Mother of Dragons.

And yeah, the throne room is a ruin which may point to the fact that by the time she'll reach it Westeros will be in ruin as well. But it may also show how destructive her actions in the future may be. As for the Wall, it may mean that it's a destination she's bound to appear in. The scene rises it significance. But I wouldn't dwell on it all. The truth is the visions in the tv-show don't really tell much.

Edited by zuziako, 05 June 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[Fragile Bird]

I would remind everyone of GRRM's famous comment about his ending being "bittersweet".  A lot of people have concentrated on the death of characters.

But, it has been pointed out, this may mean that the war will eventually be over, but much of the land will be devastated by both winter and battle.

[TheDarkOne]

I took the HotU symbolism basically like this.....
D&D knew that due to budget constraints they couldn't do anything close to the books, but they still had the sets available they used for filming the series. So why not put Dany into sets we don't normally see her in, then make them weird and people will probably discuss it to death, hey it worked with Lost, and that will keep them happy.

Take the throne room. Was it snow, ash, who knows. But it's vague enough it could be a million things, as most prophecies are.
She finds her husband beyond the wall, or maybe it's her life beyond the wall, or maybe it's her death, or maybe it's Jon Snow, or maybe it's a trap the Warlocks made. It could mean any of them, but so far it's doing exactly what it's designed to do, keep people talking.

In reality, I think it's all a red hearing that was left purposefully vague to fit with whatever happens in the books.

[Hasfast]

isiman, on 05 June 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

No

GRRM is not a show runner, he writes the script for an episode and is involved in the casting, that's it.

Did I say he was running the show? No... I say that he's there all the time, certainly open as an advisor. That's one perk of having the author alive. D.R.

[Hasfast]

TheDarkOne, on 05 June 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

I took the HotU symbolism basically like this.....
D&D knew that due to budget constraints they couldn't do anything close to the books, but they still had the sets available they used for filming the series. So why not put Dany into sets we don't normally see her in, then make them weird and people will probably discuss it to death, hey it worked with Lost, and that will keep them happy.

Take the throne room. Was it snow, ash, who knows. But it's vague enough it could be a million things, as most prophecies are.
She finds her husband beyond the wall, or maybe it's her life beyond the wall, or maybe it's her death, or maybe it's Jon Snow, or maybe it's a trap the Warlocks made. It could mean any of them, but so far it's doing exactly what it's designed to do, keep people talking.

In reality, I think it's all a red hearing that was left purposefully vague to fit with whatever happens in the books.

It could indeed be the case... yet I'd rather think that these guys have some integrity and respect for the audiences. If it were just for ratings, why put images that hold on to the books yet make people hate the show a little bit? The deaths and failures of loved characters, for example... or why would they use codes that only readers would find meaningful, like The Rains of Castamere, Loras riding with Renly's armor, and these very scenes in the House of the Undying? People keep giving Lost as an example of low creative integrity for the sake of profit... I keep thinking of the reasons why I never liked that show and never succumbed to my friends' suggestions that I should watch it. D.R.

[Howdyphillip]

Hasfast, on 05 June 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Did I say he was running the show? No... I say that he's there all the time, certainly open as an advisor. That's one perk of having the author alive. D.R.

Um... except for the fact that GRRM is NOT there all the time. As a matter of fact, I don't think he made a visit to the set at all in filming the series this year. He is consulted about the show, but there are a lot of instances that he has told the producers that a change could have a major effect on his story, and they kept it anyway.

I am saying this as a show apologist. I personally love the show, and I don't really mind the changes that the writers have made. I think that by and large, the show works as a phenomenal narrative in its own right. I am just saying that the fact of the matter is that the show is very much separate from the books.


also... as a favor, can you turn your bold off, every time I read your posts I think that you are yelling at me.

[isiman]

Hasfast, on 05 June 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Did I say he was running the show? No... I say that he's there all the time, certainly open as an advisor. That's one perk of having the author alive. D.R.

A show runner is there all the time, not someone who writes a script per season.It's been told to death that this series is an HBO creature, not canon not GRRM's work.If D&D want to make a character more bitchy or more available to a wider audience they just do it, GRRM has no say in it, same story with minor plots (which actually can considerably change the experience).GRRM has bookS to write, places to be and many other projects, he is not there 24/7, that would be the only way the show would have felt faithful to the books in this season.

[piratesswoop]

jon, on 04 June 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

i think they did throw book viewers a bone. when dany sees her son in the book, he has her color hair. there's no reason for her baby not having that color hair in the show. i think that is a clear statement that targaryans can have dark hair and puts more fuel on the fire or r+l=j.

Little Rhaenys Targaryen was described as darker in complexion and looking more Dornish than Targaryen, so that's not necessarily throwing book readers a bone if they already knew it was possible for a half-Targ child to be a brunette.

[Hasfast]

Holafernando Torres, on 05 June 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Um... except for the fact that GRRM is NOT there all the time. As a matter of fact, I don't think he made a visit to the set at all in filming the series this year. He is consulted about the show, but there are a lot of instances that he has told the producers that a change could have a major effect on his story, and they kept it anyway.

I am saying this as a show apologist. I personally love the show, and I don't really mind the changes that the writers have made. I think that by and large, the show works as a phenomenal narrative in its own right. I am just saying that the fact of the matter is that the show is very much separate from the books.


also... as a favor, can you turn your bold off, every time I read your posts I think that you are yelling at me.

isiman, on 05 June 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

A show runner is there all the time, not someone who writes a script per season.It's been told to death that this series is an HBO creature, not canon not GRRM's work.If D&D want to make a character more bitchy or more available to a wider audience they just do it, GRRM has no say in it, same story with minor plots (which actually can considerably change the experience).GRRM has bookS to write, places to be and many other projects, he is not there 24/7, that would be the only way the show would have felt faithful to the books in this season.

I did express myself wrong, then... No, it was never my intention to say that he was ON the set all the time, just that he's alive and well and able for contact to offer advise and insight into his own novels. That's what I meant by saying that he's always present. Sorry if it was misunderstood.

Holafernando, I'm sorry. I don't use bold, I just increase my letter size because I don't like to use the regular Arial or Verdana styles. Although even when I change it to Times, it just doesn't show that way... It puzzles me. D.R.

Edited by Hasfast, 05 June 2012 - 12:50 PM.

[FrozenFire3]

zuziako, on 05 June 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

PEOPLE

It's not that complicated. Dany reaches for the Throne, which is what she really wants, but  she hears her dragons, has a moment of doubt, but goes to them, and leaves the throne. The scene with Drogo is the same -  she is about to loose herself in this perfect dream but she hears her dragons again- and leaves Drogo. It's a test. A test which proves dragons are more important to her than the throne and her marriage. She chooses them over everything else and she doesn't allow herself to get lost along the way. She is the Mother of Dragons.

And yeah, the throne room is a ruin which may point to the fact that by the time she'll reach it Westeros will be in ruin as well. But it may also show how destructive her actions in the future may be. As for the Wall, it may mean that it's a destination she's bound to appear in. The scene rises it significance. But I wouldn't dwell on it all. The truth is the visions in the tv-show don't really tell much.

Exactly. Since the visions are different from the book, I guess they have no other meaning but to test her. Dany sees everything she has always desired: the iron throne, Drogo etc. But then again she is mother of dragons so when she hears her children she does not linger in dreams and runs to rescue them.

[Hasfast]

zuziako, on 05 June 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

PEOPLE

It's not that complicated. Dany reaches for the Throne, which is what she really wants, but  she hears her dragons, has a moment of doubt, but goes to them, and leaves the throne. The scene with Drogo is the same -  she is about to loose herself in this perfect dream but she hears her dragons again- and leaves Drogo. It's a test. A test which proves dragons are more important to her than the throne and her marriage. She chooses them over everything else and she doesn't allow herself to get lost along the way. She is the Mother of Dragons.

And yeah, the throne room is a ruin which may point to the fact that by the time she'll reach it Westeros will be in ruin as well. But it may also show how destructive her actions in the future may be. As for the Wall, it may mean that it's a destination she's bound to appear in. The scene rises it significance. But I wouldn't dwell on it all. The truth is the visions in the tv-show don't really tell much.

FrozenFire3, on 05 June 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Exactly. Since the visions are different from the book, I guess they have no other meaning but to test her. Dany sees everything she has always desired: the iron throne, Drogo etc. But then again she is mother of dragons so when she hears her children she does not linger in dreams and runs to rescue them.

That's an interpretation and I can't say I dislike it. It's simple and straightforward... But just a perspective, not the only one. D.R.

[StarkWard]

I for one, think it's snow. The flecks on Dany's hair surely look like snow. If it WERE ash, there'd be some black particles here and there, don't you think?

Nonetheless, I took the throne vision's meaning as Dany's conquest in Westeros will not bring her happiness. Now, it may be her biggest deam, but once she seats on the chair, she would feel like the throne room. Empty and alone.

[Clariana]

Thanks Ayra. Well the image speaks to me

http://oi48.tinypic.com/2rc1o38.jpg

That's a blue flower inset on a flame colour rosette upon a window the colour of winter.  I'll happily take that as a proxy for the blue rose...

[Zod]

I GET IT! Craster will be Dany's lover in the future!

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

I kind of think Dany not touching the Throne is foreshadowing, that she will get "get close enough to touch it" but never take it.

which would be awsome cus i dislike her very much, and she is half mad already and would be a bad queen, already is really. THis part isnt really relevent to the thread tho just my opinion.

[Reposado]

daoloth, on 04 June 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

I'll be blunt perhaps but this is my experience with tv production. There was NO foreshadowing whatsoever. Instead it was a smart trick the writers played on you to have you chasing the rabbit much like Lost fans did to their disappointment. This is why those visions are so vague and seemingly meaningless. A fan's mind will add anything to salvage it into a coherent story. Unless you agree that "the floor was covered with snow.... Jon Snow!" is the new black for the series. The show is a one time product much more than the books are. It is much more short-lived and intensive. If they have you waiting until the 3rd season it worked no matter how meaningless it is. If it is enough to fill the gaping plot holes - it worked too.

mm, i'm guessing they were more concerned with creating a great visual than with establishing prophecy. and i won't disparage their ability at creating visuals

Im With Stannis, on 04 June 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

I just dont understand why they could show Rheagar with Aegon. Dont want to hire an actor fir a speaking role? Fine, have Pyclle and Varys in the room and say the lines, and have extras play Rheagar and Elia. Ugh, it bugs me so much they didnt drop "The Prince that was Promised" or "3 heads of the dragon"

orrrr have kit harrington with silver hair as rhaegar. that would stir the fire

Hasfast, on 05 June 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

I keep thinking of the reasons why I never liked that show and never succumbed to my friends' suggestions that I should watch it. D.R.

I'm glad that you so greatly dislike a show that you never watched

[Strider]

I really think too much is being made of the HotU vsions, both in the book and in the series.  I am not yet persuaded that the visions and various prophesies in the book are meant to be taken as seriously as most readers think.  They are certainly not guides to action.  They are confusing and contradictory.  Religion thrives on them, of course--but should we trust them?  Do they truly foreshadow the future or do they deceive?

Regarding the HBO visions, their function is totally different.  I do not see them as prophetic foreshadowings at all.  They tell us more about Dany's hidden hopes, dreams, and fears than anything else.  I think of them as temptations--temptations to give up her quest for the Iron Throne, which is precisely what the warlocks want her to do.

[Fragile Bird]

Strider, on 06 June 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

I really think too much is being made of the HotU vsions, both in the book and in the series.  I am not yet persuaded that the visions and various prophesies in the book are meant to be taken as seriously as most readers think.  They are certainly not guides to action.  They are confusing and contradictory.  Religion thrives on them, of course--but should we trust them?  Do they truly foreshadow the future or do they deceive?

Regarding the HBO visions, their function is totally different.  I do not see them as prophetic foreshadowings at all.  They tell us more about Dany's hidden hopes, dreams, and fears than anything else.  I think of them as temptations--temptations to give up her quest for the Iron Throne, which is precisely what the warlocks want her to do.

I've said this before - I think GRRM has used his prophecies and foreshadowing techniques in both a beguiling and taunting manner.  There is so much foreshadowing in the books, and yet you could do a whole thread on hints he drops that turn out not to be foreshadowing.  When you open a series with a scene of a direwolf choked to death by an antler shoved down it's throat, and you see what has happened to the Starks by the end of AGOT, your mind is wide open to trying to interpret and understand the things you are reading.

While book and HBO are radically different, I don't think the 2 Ds are indifferent to this fact.  They are, after all, lovers of the books themselves, and while they can't do in the TV series the things that are done in the books, I think we can give them credit for the 2 major prophecy scenes in Episode 10, Dany's, and Stannis and Mel.  What GRRM can do in pages of description they need to do far more succinctly, which is what I believe they've succeeded in doing.  IMHO.

I would like to hear more opinions about Stannis and Mel!

[Britanicus]

Bearsblood8, on 04 June 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Does anyone think Hodor's reverent whispered "Hodor" while leaving Maester Luwin reveals a greater brilliance and subtlety than Littlefinger has shown all season?  (Not as an actor, but as a character)

To add relevance, is this foreshadowing Hodor's perceptive abilities?

Hodor.

[tearloch]

I definitely like the discussion here.  I think much of the symbolism is important, such as snow and burnt thrown room, Dany finding her love North of the Wall, etc.

As far as the significance, I guess my theory goes like this:

Much of this series deals with things in 3s.  3 treacheries, 3 mounts, 3 heads, 3, 3, 3......  In the HoU scene, Dany is presented with three choices.  She is presented with achieving her amibitions (the Iron Throne), with love (Drogo and child), and with duty (the Dragons).  She turns away from ambition and finds love.  She turns away from love for duty.  Her duty is to protect the realm with her dragons.  That is why she was able to hatch the dragons when no one else could.  It is her destiny, and she will be tested.  Maybe her being chained up after she finds her dragons symbolizes that she is bound to this destiny, and must see it through to be free.  I also think its important that she finds her love north of the wall.

While I understand GRRM didn't write the screen plays, I also think he has some say in shaping them.  He does write an episode each season, so its absurd to think that he isn't in on what happens in the other episodes.  You can't write an episode of a series in a vacuum.  He has to know what changes were made in the previous episodes and what is planned for future ones to prevent his writing from being disjointed from the rest of the eipisodes.