57 replies to this topic

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Katydid, on 04 June 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

As with all the other characters, there's unfortunately not enough time to delve into their POV-thoughts and development.  I see both sides of show!Brienne becoming so violent so soon.  But it's not as big a deviation from her book counterpart as some (aka Shae.)  So I can deal.  Yes, especially if Jaime starts making impressed moon-eyes at her that much sooner.  

I think this is a really excellent point, and applies to more than just Brienne.  The fact is that the TV show simply cannot give as much screentime to characters as do the books.  The books can take their time with character development, revealing it bit by bit, etc.  The show is necessarily going to have to compress/adjust some of that to get the characters where they need to be, while at the same time not developing characters by such dribs and drabs that it gets lost in the rest of the episode.  I think this means that character develepment is going to come more in fits and starts, or perhaps zigs and zags, and perhaps earlier or later than it does in the books for each character.

I mean, think how few shows actually show development of character as opposed to just revelation of character.  ASOIAF is so chock full of real character development over the course of the books (and within each book), that it would be perhaps an impossible task to do it on screen the same as the books.  Because to show development, you first have to establish the initial character in the minds of the viewer, then have events unfold that make changes to that character appear reasonable.  That must be an extraordinarily difficult thing to do properly given the sheer number of characters in ASOIAF.

So to the extent some characters appear to be a shade or two off from where they are supposed to be at this point -- and perhaps Arya, Brienne, and Danys would fit that -- it is entirely possible that more significant events in subsequent seasons will "zig" back to correct the "zags" that have happened so far.  But at least at this point, I don't see any character so far off his/her character from the books that subsequent events cannot occur and still make sense.

[Katydid]

Currawong, on 05 June 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

I am hoping that the writers will be able to show us some of her inner complexities and softer side once she and Jaime get captured by the Bloody Mummers, and he loses his hand.  Then there will be an opportunity for them to show her gentle side in caring for him, and possibly have some additional dialogue between them as they start to understand each other better.  It woud make dramatic sense to have some of her POV background we get in AFFC brought forward to conversations with Jaime.  We have already seen her loyalty and determination, so giving us Badass Warrior Brienne at first should set up a nice contrast for later Brienne (well, I hope it does!)

ITA.  Gwen should have some good, juicy material to work with when Jaime is maimed and Brienne is forced to care for him.  One scene I'm really hoping they do justice to is when she asks him "are you so craven?"  That's a verbal slap in the face for Jaime, one that really gets through to him and lights a fire under his ass to keep on living.

[B'uckles]

I'm a little surprised that the writing is getting all the attention in the discussion here. The actors are outstanding and subtle, and have excellent chemistry. This is really going to be fun to watch- looking forward to seeing the trip unfold next season.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Absolutely. Said it before and I will said it forever, Jaime and Brienne's travels were some of the most awesome moments in the books for me. And I think the actors are doing their characters great justice.

Looking forward to seeing Jaime's road to redemption. Non-readers still look at me funny when I said he's my favourite character

He still hasn't called her "wench" though...

[Katydid]

Lord Ashford, on 05 June 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

He still hasn't called her "wench" though...

That's honestly the only problem I have with them so far.  We've gotten "Kingslayer"s from Brienne - - now it's his turn.  He HAS to call her "wench"!

[It is known.]

Did they darken Jaime's hair?  It seemed more brown than blonde this episode, I wasn't sure if it was just supposed to look dirty or if it was part of his 'disguise' along with the beard.  Anyone else think it looked darker?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I put this in the nitpick thread and I'll post it here again.  TV Brienne is a terrible interpretation of the character.  Brienne is brave, but gentle, and honorable.  She would never inflict pain for the sake of being cruel.  She is not some hardass killing machine.  Book Brienne is one of my favorite characters in the series but TVBrienne is pretty unlikable to me at this point.

I can't even envision how her redemption of Jaime is supposed to work with how they've portrayed her.  Jaime is going to reconsider his past acts of callous violence because he encountered another remorseless killing machine? Really?

Edited by The Scabbard Of the Morning, 05 June 2012 - 03:10 PM.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Yeah, actually, now that you mention it. In the scene with the Stark men (where Jaime was trying to hide his face) his hair did look a bit different.

Maybe he'll just shave it off next year as he did in the book?

Keep the beard, get his hair like this: http://i.imgur.com/ZpN3Y.jpg

[Clariana]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 05 June 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

TV Brienne is a terrible interpretation of the character.  Brienne is brave, but gentle, and honorable.  She would never inflict pain for the sake of being cruel.  She is not some hardass killing machine.  Book Brienne is one of my favorite characters in the series but TVBrienne is pretty unlikable to me at this point.

I can't even envision how her redemption of Jaime is supposed to work with how they've portrayed her.  Jaime is going to reconsider his past acts of callous violence because he encountered another remorseless killing machine? Really?

I disagree. TV Brienne is not a remorseless killing machine. She was upset seeing the wenches hung from the neck, quite possibly, as Jaime pointed out, due to no more than fluttering their eyelashes at a guy from the wrong side... And even if they were whores, so what? They were unarmed they didn't kill anyone. The soldiers that killed them made no bones about having enjoyed doing it.  If something gets Brienne's goat it's innocents suffering. As I pointed out above she gives them an out, a chance to walk on by... But they don't take it. Quite probably because they think she's just another woman they can abuse...

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

The biggest change kind slipped me by. Wasn't her first hand-to-hand kill against the Bloody Mummer remnants in A Feast For Crows? Shagwell and the other chap. Brienne remembering all her training and killing them, thinking "holy shit I'm actually good at this." She looked like a pro in the show.

But yeah, this is one of those times I'm happy to say "show and book are different" and let it be Still more annoyed that they turned Jaime into a kinslayer but whatever...

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Brienne would never kill some one in the most painful way possible, no more than Eddard Stark would.

[Tenlaar]

Clariana, on 05 June 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

The soldiers that killed them made no bones about having enjoyed doing it.  If something gets Brienne's goat it's innocents suffering

What is supposed to make Brienne a cut above the other knights is her unwillingness to sink to the levels that they do.  She will protect the weak, she will be the hand of justice - she will NOT make somebody suffer a needlessly slow/painful death for the sake of revenge.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Tenlaar, on 05 June 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

What is supposed to make Brienne a cut above the other knights is her unwillingness to sink to the levels that they do.  She will protect the weak, she will be the hand of justice - she will NOT make somebody suffer a needlessly slow/painful death for the sake of revenge.

Exactly, thank you!  And it is precisely this characteristic that draws Jaime to her.  He who has given up on honor and vows finally sees someone who lives up to them, and shows him it is possible, and makes him rethink the choices he has made in life.

[Jolene Brown]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 05 June 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Exactly, thank you!  And it is precisely this characteristic that draws Jaime to her.  He who has given up on honor and vows finally sees someone who lives up to them, and shows him it is possible, and makes him rethink the choices he has made in life.

I generally like Brienne/Jaime, and enjoy their scenes, especially due to the acting, and their being mostly closer to the original than the hackfest that is Robb/Talisa or other things, but this does really bother me - and the worst part is that I doubt the writers/producers even gave this a second thought.  I doubt it even occurred to them for a second that anyone would be bothered by her killing of the soldier in that way; I just don't think they think characterization through enough for it to even occur to them why it had the potential to be a problem or that it even WAS a change in her.

[Elba the Intoner]

I totally agree with Scabbard of the Morning and Tenlaar.  For the record I do think that the casting of these two is fantastic and they already have a great repor that I can't wait to see play out next season (though as someone else noted, I want to hear Jaime call her "wench").  I didn't even have much of an issue with Brienne killing the guards per se as it was necessary.  BUT, the way she killed the third one, drawing out his death to make it painful and slow, was just not Brienne.  She would never do something like that, even if it was in retaliation for what the guard did to one of the tavern wenches.  She should have made a point of saying to him that a quick death is more than he deserves for what he did but she is not like him and therefore she will give him a quick death.  Having her give him a slow and painful death was just so wrong.

[Gaius Martell]

I think I'm okay with the television version(s) of Brienne (and Stannis) being overly "badassified."  Meek, unwilling-to-kill Brienne isn't going to be likeable to a TV audience and commanding-from-the-back, not-admitting-fault Stannis won't get anyone to like him when he's the only one of the original five kings left and he's the best option we have left to root for.  Make them more instantly likeable, your audience makes those transitions much quicker.  Boring-Brienne and hated-Jaime would be a tough arc to follow, methinks.

[Elba the Intoner]

But it's not the fact that she's unwilling to kill that I am arguing about.  They have shown her willing to kill when necessary and people have already started to like her.  It's the fact that they have her doing this one, more cruel kill that I have trouble with.  That makes her LESS likeable to me.

[Sand11751]

The kill may be more cruel, but in her POV, she's meriting out justice to a man who did not give his victim a slow death. She paid him back in kind on behalf of a possible innocent. I have no problem with it.

[Currawong]

Sand11751, on 05 June 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

The kill may be more cruel, but in her POV, she's meriting out justice to a man who did not give his victim a slow death. She paid him back in kind on behalf of a possible innocent. I have no problem with it.

I agree with this, because of "what" the man did and boasted about - rape and worse.   As we know from her thoughts in AFFC, Brienne herself has never really felt safe even in Renly's camp, always alert to the possibility of rape, and training herself to sleep lightly with weapons at the ready.   And this is a woman who is bigger and stronger than most men, and more than able to protect herself!  

If the man concerned had 'just' been a soldier enemy who'd killed innocent people, then  yes, she'd put him out of his misery quickly as she did with the others.  But as a woman who has herself lived with the threat of rape, I could definitely see even sweet and gentle Brienne wanting to make a man suffer because of his crimes against an innocent woman.   She may well feel regrets about it later - and that would be perfectly true to her character - but I do not think that making a man suffer for the crime of rape is totally outside Brienne's character.

[B'uckles]

And book Brienne too has been known to argue fort the taking of revenge against wanton doers of evil...as a reason for Jaime not to give up and die, in fact.