57 replies to this topic

[Elba the Intoner]

B, on 05 June 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

And book Brienne too has been known to argue fort the taking of revenge against wanton doers of evil...as a reason for Jaime not to give up and die, in fact.

Yes, but she meant for Jaime to live so he could kill them.  I highly doubt that the revenge Brienne had in mind for the bloody mummers in the book was to cut off their hands or even make them suffer first.  In fact we see later in the books that that is how the Mountain operates when he is sent to deal with Vargo Hoat.

[Silmarien]

Katydid, on 04 June 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

I thought their scene was beautifully done, yet again.  These two have had less than 10 minutes of screentime together so far, but have been knocking it out of the freaking park.  Their storyline next season promises great things!

I've seen a complaint or two about show!Brienne being a little more brutal than book!Brienne at this point, but I think it worked in this scene.  The third guy she gave a slower death to had been laughing & taunting the loudest, and he was the one who insinuated a slow, painful death for the third woman.  Brienne was extracting a little vengeance on behalf of the innocents.

Jaime's reaction when she unleashed was what I really enjoyed.  The Kingslayer himself, jaw dropped and speechless.  Awesome!

If they don't backtrack to the river and give us the Ryger/Stark chase next season, I'm glad they introduced an element of teamwork in this scene.  In the book, Jaime distracts Ryger so Brienne can get to the top of the hill without being brought down by the archers; here it was Jaime covering for her by annoucing himself a pig thief when she got stuck, and her following along with the charade immediately.  These two are just FUN.  (And incidentally, it would be fantastic if they DO backtrack them to the river, so Brienne can drop a few rocks.)  

Well said.  I think Brienne was getting justice for those 3 women, not vengeance.  So it fits better with her character than just her randomly killing some dudes.  Just IMHO.

[Jolene Brown]

She does cut off Timeon's hand (and thinks about how it is for Jaime) and kills Shagwell brutally in AFFC, but I think that is specifically because of how what she endures with Jaime at their hands has changed her and Shagwell, in particular, was one of those who threatened to rape her most frequently and totally grossly.  She also ends up sobbing and shuddering, though not for long, once the killing of Shagwell is done.  Having her be so brutal now just totally misses the point.

[Currawong]

But once again, by suggesting that they are 'missing the point', you completely ignore the many difficulties of transferring internal Book Brienne POV to the screen.

Yes, they may eventually show her shuddering and sobbing after she kills Shagwell in AFFC.    But stop and think about how that scene would appear on-screen to TV viewers - it could just be anyone's normal reaction to killing in a sudden, violent fight.  It wouldn't seem like it was anything particular to internal, gentle Brienne.

[Silmarien]

Elba the Intoner, on 05 June 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

But it's not the fact that she's unwilling to kill that I am arguing about.  They have shown her willing to kill when necessary and people have already started to like her.  It's the fact that they have her doing this one, more cruel kill that I have trouble with.  That makes her LESS likeable to me.

Aw come on that dude was dead in less than 2 minutes.  It really didn't take that long, people.

[Jolene Brown]

Currawong, on 05 June 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

But once again, by suggesting that they are 'missing the point', you completely ignore the many difficulties of transferring internal Book Brienne POV to the screen.

Yes, they may eventually show her shuddering and sobbing after she kills Shagwell in AFFC. But stop and think about how that scene would appear on-screen to TV viewers - it could just be anyone's normal reaction to killing in a sudden, violent fight.  It wouldn't seem like it was anything particular to internal, gentle Brienne.

It wouldn't be very hard though to establish that she has never killed anyone... they could do it through a conversation with Jaime now, or Pod later.  There are a lot of ways to make it obvious to the viewer that this is a big deal to her.  You could even have her talking about what her maester told her, I really liked that story about the guy who was great in practice but when he finally had to kill someone, he hesitated, and the other guy was able to kill him.  She could tell that story to Pod to try to get him to understand that battle was serious, and then he could say, "What was it like when you killed someone," and she could be like, "I haven't done it yet."  It's not hard to externalize some of these thoughts when you have so many characters interacting in pairs.  It's a totally natural conversation for her to have with the kid she is basically mentoring, and it makes it ironic that she's advising him when she herself is still pretty new to actually being a knight.  If you must move it up, then do the same thing with Jaime in this scene instead of more of the same type of banter (it was fun, and they have great chemistry, but still).

Edited by Jolene Brown, 05 June 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[Katydid]

Considering Brienne gave Guard #3 a quicker, less painful, less rape-filled death than he probably bestowed upon Hanging Woman #3?

I'm good with it.  It was lingering, but it was no more or less brutal than the others.  Slicing through the one guy's neck wouldn't have been an immediate lights-out death either, and was probably quite painful.

This is one aspect of the adaptation that I'm not going to over-analyze.  

[SandSnowFlowersRivers]

I thought the Jaime & Brienne scene stole the episode.  Both are great actors and doing solid adaptaitions of the book characters.

D&D would do well to showcase these fine performers and allocate a generous amount of dialouge and screen time to their interactions in season three.

[Currawong]

Quote

I'm good with it. It was lingering, but it was no more or less brutal than the others. Slicing through the one guy's neck wouldn't have been an immediate lights-out death either, and was probably quite painful.

This is one aspect of the adaptation that I'm not going to over-analyze.

Agree 100%.   There is plenty of time for the Jaime and Brienne story arcs to develop in Seasons 3 and 4, both together and as individuals, so how about waiting until we see the whole thing before racing in to condemn the writers after watching only two brief J/B scenes,.

SandSnowFlowersRivers, on 05 June 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

I thought the Jaime & Brienne scene stole the episode.  Both are great actors and doing solid adaptaitions of the book characters.

D&D would do well to showcase these fine performers and allocate a generous amount of dialouge and screen time to their interactions in season three.

Yes please!  NCW has always done an amazing job with Jaime, and now GC is doing the same with Brienne.   They have really nailed their relationship, and it's great to see the on-screen chemistry between them.

Given that Tyrion's story arc takes a major downwards turn from the end of Season 2 and will no longer allow him all those frequent and wonderful exchanges with Cersei, Bronn, Varys and others, the show needs the Jaime / Brienne sparks to add some humour (in addition to Dolorous Edd of course!).

So it's a case of:  "Please sir, I want some more!"

[Tenlaar]

I don't see anybody condemning anybody.  I think both of the actors are fantastic and are playing the characters as well as anybody could ever hope for.

That does not mean that I will believe Brienne would ever purposefully cause somebody pain like that instead of ending it with a quick stroke.

[Maria Underfoot]

Awesome chemistry, I cannot wait for what lies ahead.
One complaint though: WHY HAVEN'T WE  HEARD THE WORD "WENCH"????

[Katydid]

Maria Underfoot, on 08 June 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Awesome chemistry, I cannot wait for what lies ahead.
One complaint though: WHY HAVEN'T WE  HEARD THE WORD "WENCH"????

Yeah, that's the common complaint!  

Nice new interview w/Bryan Cogman where he comments on J/B:

Quote

I want to talk about Jamie Lannister’s scene with Brienne in the finale, where they’re on the run to King’s Landing and encounter Stark soldiers, because it was so funny, and so mean. He’s not exactly lived a sexually conforming life, but he’s trying to bring her into conformity.
If you remembered when he tried to bait Catelyn, that’s the scene in the first season, where she visits him in the prison tent, he says “If you feel bad about Ned, I could take care of you.” Knowing he’s the sexiest man in the Seven Kingdoms, he uses his position to intimidate, and to also figure out what he’s dealing with. I think that’s sort of a natural thing for him to fall back on, even though I think he’s never been with anyone but Cersei. It’s all talk, to a certain extent. He really has no idea what to make of Brienne. He’s never encountered anyone like this, and she keeps surprising him at every turn. It’s “She’s a she-male, I know how to get at her.” She’s obviously a tough nut to crack, and the third season will explore that.

They immediately work together right now. They kind of take on a Butch and the Sundance quality that I would imagine surprises them in the moment, too. And that plants the seed for their relationship going forward. It’s not really in the book, it’s a version and a combination of a few different moments in the books. But I think it’s important that these guys who did these terrible things to these tavern wenches are Stark men, because we thought it was very improtant to illustrate there’s the nastiness of war, it affects all sides.

In the novels, Brienne is something of an innocent. The things that are visited upon her almost feel like retribution for believing in the fairy tale. It hink some folks were surprised by how brutal she was. Was there a decision about amping up the level of violence she’s willing to commit?
I agree it does differ from the book. That’s a decision David and Dan made when writing the scripts…I think she still operates under a code, but it’s important to remember that a) these guys were going to botch the plan and the mission and probably kill them both, and they have admitted to torturing innocent women. I think in the books, Brienne’s first kill doesn’t happen until much later.

At the risk of sounding like a complete fangirl, I really, really hope they get Jaime & Brienne's story/relationship "right" in the pivotal book 3 scenes they have coming up.  Their journey is one of my favorites in the novels, and the producers most definitely struck casting gold with both Nikolaj and Gwen.

[Istakhr]

If writers wanted to show Brienne as a raging killer, they could have her develop into one as story went forward. Instead Brienne has begun he TV show as an equivalent of the Hound.
Now without her slow loss of innocence like in the books there is no real character arc for her. The two scenes of Brienne slaughtering soldiers this season has just been another example of writers sacrificing character arcs to get cool scenes.

[Will&Chrismom]

I'm new here, hope I can crash the party.

Brienne is my favorite character, bar none, and I am going to respectfully disagree with those who have a problem with how she is presented in the show.

I agree 100% with the writers' decision to present Brienne as an already-hardened warrior in the show; I think it makes perfect sense given the plot and character development constraints of a 10-episode season that must also devote adequate time to multiple other characters and plot lines. I think the writers wanted to quickly establish Jaime's conflicting feelings about Brienne, and the best way to SHOW that (as opposed to tell it, courtesy of Jaime's inner monologue over the course of many chapters in "Storm of Swords"), is for Brienne to be a bad ass.

I don't think, either, that Brienne comes off as a senseless killing machine. I think her fury at the one Stark guy, and her method of killing him, was not so much about avenging the three dead whores--although that was certainly part of it--but also a way to avenge all women everywhere in general and herself in particular, who has been the butt of the joke. Jaime's expression says it all: he is not only impressed with Brienne, he is also a little afraid of her, and a little admiring of her, and in the end his expression rightly shows that his feelings for her have suddenly changed, and this confuses him.

I also have the sense that the writers are working Brienne in reverse, making her hardened in the beginning as a result of dealing with a male-dominated world that mocks, doubts and scorns her at every turn, and allowing her to soften and show some vulnerability as her relationship with Jaime changes and deepens. I think, TV-wise, it will be more satisfying and work better visually and dramatically for Jaime and Brienne to kind of "undo" each other.

[Rose-Papillon]

SandSnowFlowersRivers, on 05 June 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

I thought the Jaime & Brienne scene stole the episode.  Both are great actors and doing solid adaptaitions of the book characters.

D&D would do well to showcase these fine performers and allocate a generous amount of dialouge and screen time to their interactions in season three.

I agree with this SO very much! It's the one thing I'm looking forward to the most.

[Janicia]

The threat of rape / forced intimacy hangs over book Brienne.  She is angry about how men treat her and angry about rape.  I don't think it is a huge stretch of her character to have a violent response to a man boasting about raping and killing women.  I think it makes more sense for Brienne to be the female character doing something against rapists than pre-pubescent Arya.  I suspect that she dug graves for all 6 of the dead.

[Masamune]

Will&Chrismom, on 17 June 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

I agree 100% with the writers' decision to present Brienne as an already-hardened warrior in the show; I think it makes perfect sense given the plot and character development constraints of a 10-episode season that must also devote adequate time to multiple other characters and plot lines. I think the writers wanted to quickly establish Jaime's conflicting feelings about Brienne, and the best way to SHOW that (as opposed to tell it, courtesy of Jaime's inner monologue over the course of many chapters in "Storm of Swords"), is for Brienne to be a bad ass.

Or you know, they've could saved that FOR WHEN BRIENNE BESTS JAIME IN BATTLE. You know, I think that little nugget might be a better establishing scene than making up something that completely betrays the character and turns her into Ivan Drago's sister.

[Katydid]

Janicia, on 30 August 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

The threat of rape / forced intimacy hangs over book Brienne.  She is angry about how men treat her and angry about rape.  I don't think it is a huge stretch of her character to have a violent response to a man boasting about raping and killing women.  I think it makes more sense for Brienne to be the female character doing something against rapists than pre-pubescent Arya.  I suspect that she dug graves for all 6 of the dead.

Something I never considered, but probably true.  She probably did bury the Stark men, along with the hanged women.