[Book Spoilers] "Cut the Flashbacks, Let's Create Flashback": The Dung of the Undying

[7V3N]

As many know, the Game of Thrones show finally got to the House of the Undying. The only thing that really had importance in Dany's storyline for book/season two. The key: prophecies and visions, the things that keep this board constantly down due to overpopulation :ack: .

I had been so excited for this scene since season one ended. It was really the beginning of the next scale. It was a chapter that said, "She cannot be stopped, she is destined for greatness." Now we see things change later in her story, but that is irrelevant.

Book readers know all about how flashbacks have been cut from the show. We wanted to see some of Robert and Ned in the Rebellion, some of Ned and Lyanna, Rhaegar, and perhaps Arys. But the show made the decision to wipe all of that out. With that, I expected the HotU to perhaps skip to Dany meeting the warlocks with that giant (blue?) heart thing. This way they could just ignore the prophecies until next season, or even do their typical narration between Dany and Jorah (KHAALLLLLEEEEEEEEESSSSIIII!!! :cool4: ). But they decided they indeed needed to include some sort of vision.

Instead they went with this scene of Dany, Drogo, and their child Rhaego. A scene with no true meaning to the story, and has no explanation for its inclusion. It was the makers of the show saying, people liked Jason as Drogo, I bet the ratings would love to see him again in a cheesily-written, romantic, what-could-have-been scene that for some reason started at the Iron Throne, then to the Wall (with no blue rose, which I thought they could have at least put in as a sort of easter egg for us book readers). So they cut out all of the flashbacks and visions from the books, but then created their own meaningless scene and found time/money to put it in.

I cannot express how pissed/disappointed (pissapointed, as said in a post) I am. This seems like another example of how money is guiding this show. I mean, they had Bronn's whore switch to being naked (originally written in with clothes) just for viewers. -_- (I don't necessarily mind, but it shows their attitude towards getting viewers).

Now, this is not a "rant" topic, but an analytic discussion on how the writers/executives/whoever are making changes to the story--which will have consequences--without proper justification, specifically the hypocritical cutting of flashbacks and visions, then the inclusion of made-up ones.

[Ser Wun Wun]

what-could-have-been scene that for some reason started at the Wall (with no blue rose, which I thought they could have at least put in as a sort of easter egg for us book readers). So they cut out all of the flashbacks and visions from the books, but then created their own meaningless scene and found time/money to put it in.

I know, I was looking for a blue rose from the moment she stepped foot out there. And in the throne room I was waiting to hear some disembodied voice boom out 'Let him be the king of ashes' or something like that. For a second I was even expecting to see a Wolf protecting a baby, to symbolize Ned and Jon. Something, anything to represent a prophecy would have been nice...

I will say though, I actually read an episode recap article that described the scene in a way that almost makes me think that the writers were in fact trying to make their own prophecies about what is to come in the series with these scenes. Here is (basically) what it said that got me thinking like this:

'Dany is just about to touch the Iron Throne when she hears her dragons and follows their cries, leading her through a different door which brings her to the Wall'

Maybe I am just reading too much into it (because this is based on my own speculation about where the story is heading), but I think what happened there could be symbolic about what will happen once Dany reaches Westeros. She will at first be in pursuit of the Iron Throne, and just when she is about to get it something happens. A betrayal? A revelation? Something to throw her off her course.

Whatever it is, I think it will lead her North. To the Wall, to the fight with the Others, etc.. I'm not sure what the significance of that tent with Drogo and the baby in it being at the Wall is though.....That she will find that domestic bliss in the North (with Jon)? That she will die there, and that is when Drogo will return to her? I don't know.

[Reposado]

I didn't mind the scene itself. I've said often, they make very good scenes. They just fail at giving them context in the big picture. This is a perfect example of a scene that worked on its own but was completely unnecessary to the narrative.

if they were going to bring someone back they should have brought back harry lloyd and used make up to have him play rhaegar.

as it is, they would have been much better off cutting qarth entirely. nothing important happened there.

[David Selig]

Do we really need another thread about this? There are two others on the exact same topic already

[victim]

The difficult thing with prophecy is that when it isn't immediate it's a very hard thing to create. What I'm attempting to say, albeit weakly, is that the writer's went for more of an immediate emotional impact as opposed to one which eventually makes sense after years and years of seasons and differing storylines. At this point, we as book readers are still unsure of what all the prophecies mean.

The scene with Drogo gave Dany, and consequently audiences, an emotional impact in the present tense that a prophecy could never do. The vision of Drogo was certainly fabricated by the Warlocks as a means of making Dany comfortable in the HotU in order to take her power and give it to the dragons, which was their ultimate goal I believe. Pyat Pree gave Dany things she longed for; the Throne symbolises the power, the Wall symbolises the land and Drogo symbolises the love she had lost. The last is the most important, as Dany leaves Drogo and Rhaego, we realise that nothing in the past or future is more important to her than the present -- she is the Mother of Dragons, and she wants her children back, more than she ever wanted Westeros, Drogo or her unborn child. They are her babies.

The question remains, how does this affect the rest of her story compared to what the prophecies would have given us? In the end, it doesn't. I can see reasoning behind why show-runners don't want to get too far ahead of themselves. More importantly though, I think this sequence was more a culmination of where Dany's mindset has been and where it will go as opposed to Westeros as a whole. Does Dany really need to see the Red Wedding, Rhaegar and Elia or the Winter Rose? Do any of those things immediately relate to her that the audience can fathom at this stage? Outside of perhaps Rhaegar, I don't think any of these images would have an immediately profound impact on Dany like Drogo did.

In terms of the untold prophecies, Dany still needs to meet Quaithe, who is so slyly mysterious to the point where she can show up a literally any time and the audience won't be suspicious. Her looks are memorable enough that she won't be easily forgotten despite the lack of screentime. I don't doubt that we will be hearing more of three-betrayals and the Prince Who was Promised at a later date.

In the end, how do Dany's deepest desires not contribute to the overall narrative in a compelling and dramatic way?

[FrozenFire3]

I know, I was looking for a blue rose from the moment she stepped foot out there. And in the throne room I was waiting to hear some disembodied voice boom out 'Let him be the king of ashes' or something like that. For a second I was even expecting to see a Wolf protecting a baby, to symbolize Ned and Jon. Something, anything to represent a prophecy would have been nice...

I will say though, I actually read an episode recap article that described the scene in a way that almost makes me think that the writers were in fact trying to make their own prophecies about what is to come in the series with these scenes. Here is (basically) what it said that got me thinking like this:

'Dany is just about to touch the Iron Throne when she hears her dragons and follows their cries, leading her through a different door which brings her to the Wall'

Maybe I am just reading too much into it (because this is based on my own speculation about where the story is heading), but I think what happened there could be symbolic about what will happen once Dany reaches Westeros. She will at first be in pursuit of the Iron Throne, and just when she is about to get it something happens. A betrayal? A revelation? Something to throw her off her course.

Whatever it is, I think it will lead her North. To the Wall, to the fight with the Others, etc.. I'm not sure what the significance of that tent with Drogo and the baby in it being at the Wall is though.....That she will find that domestic bliss in the North (with Jon)? That she will die there, and that is when Drogo will return to her? I don't know.

I thought the same. They could have at least shown the blue rose. Not like it's expensive or anything xD At least that...

[Morvran]

........why another thread on this? I think it's well-covered already

[7V3N]

The difficult thing with prophecy is that when it isn't immediate it's a very hard thing to create. What I'm attempting to say, albeit weakly, is that the writer's went for more of an immediate emotional impact as opposed to one which eventually makes sense after years and years of seasons and differing storylines. At this point, we as book readers are still unsure of what all the prophecies mean.

But part of what I loved about Dany post-Qarth was that I was always, like her, looking for the next betrayal. I am still not convinced that Jorah's betrayal counts as on of them. And her being so paranoid about the betrayals was a huge part of what went on in her head, and made me see a bit of the paranoia her father suffered from.

And in response to the show making their own prophesies: they have no right (unless GRRM okay-ed it) since they have no idea if she will ever reach Westeros, or the Wall, or what will happen. Maybe the she will be TWOW prologue POV and the Dothraki will kill her to start (no, but it is still an available option).

To all saying this has been overdone: This is an analysis of tHotU scene AND a discussion of how they chose to mass-cut all visions and flashbacks (besides some of Bran's absolutely-necessary dreams), including those at tHotU, but then chose to make one up and include it in the series. This is more about the hypocrisy of the decision, and trying to make sense of it.

[daoloth]

i wrote it somewhere else on the forum. The HOTU scene was a filler and a trick. It is meant to drag fans into futile speculation to keep interest up much like the "mythology" was used in Lost. Throw people hungry for something special a bunch of random bits and they will conjure the story for you. It only turns sour once it is made plain that the show was never meant to reach some artistic and creative level - it is just business. It was just the writers decision that by keeping some visions they will maintain the "deep" of the show which they relentlessly butcher with every episode. So to me the whole discussion is pointless...

HOTU was important in the books because it worked as a foreshadowing not so much for the reader but for the character herself. Since the backstory in the series was filled with pointless scenes of tits, sex and violence rather than context the actual prophecies would be useless although not all of them (betrayals). As for me they could have dispensed with the visions altogether. A lot more could have been said during the showdown with the 13 Pyat prees (A nice touch ...was it one or 13 identical warlocks...sadly left resolved in the worst possible way) than by wasting time and money for vague scenes that tell absolutely nothing. And the warlock(s) were disappointing too... in the novels they were permanentnly hight with shade of the evening... in the series just plain creepy.

[FrozenFire3]

I know, I was looking for a blue rose from the moment she stepped foot out there. And in the throne room I was waiting to hear some disembodied voice boom out 'Let him be the king of ashes' or something like that. For a second I was even expecting to see a Wolf protecting a baby, to symbolize Ned and Jon. Something, anything to represent a prophecy would have been nice...

I will say though, I actually read an episode recap article that described the scene in a way that almost makes me think that the writers were in fact trying to make their own prophecies about what is to come in the series with these scenes. Here is (basically) what it said that got me thinking like this:

'Dany is just about to touch the Iron Throne when she hears her dragons and follows their cries, leading her through a different door which brings her to the Wall'

Maybe I am just reading too much into it (because this is based on my own speculation about where the story is heading), but I think what happened there could be symbolic about what will happen once Dany reaches Westeros. She will at first be in pursuit of the Iron Throne, and just when she is about to get it something happens. A betrayal? A revelation? Something to throw her off her course.

Whatever it is, I think it will lead her North. To the Wall, to the fight with the Others, etc.. I'm not sure what the significance of that tent with Drogo and the baby in it being at the Wall is though.....That she will find that domestic bliss in the North (with Jon)? That she will die there, and that is when Drogo will return to her? I don't know.

I'm sure they are symbolic (or at least I hope...) and they were visually stunning but they missed out some really important, fundamental things she should have seen. I was sure they would at least show the blue rose. Of course I wasn't expecting to see Rhaegar or to hear anything about Aegon because people (non-readers) wouldn't understand since none of the two have actually ever been mentioned (Rhaegar once or twice in season 1).

[Reposado]

........why another thread on this? I think it's well-covered already

why another post complaining about the existence of the thread? the first one covered it.

here's an idea that would have burned down this forum for days and created some real drama for the non-book people:

dress kit harington up in silver hair and age him a bit and have him play rhaegar in the scene.

[CardMaster24]

The scene was good its just the fact that all of us want all those visions in there

I do think the visions wil come back and screw them in a few years when TWOW is released and they are necessary though the show will just have to do some more edditing

[Morvran]

why another post complaining about the existence of the thread? the first one covered it.

Because I didn't bother reading further into the thread.

[Seekrit Targaryen]

I cannot express how pissed/disappointed I am.

Pissappointed?

[Silverx2]

I believe the hotu scene wasn't about the phopecies anymore so much as it was about showing the viewer that the dragons have brought magic back into the world. The warlocks made a plan to lock the dragons and dany up in order to enhance that power.

she had 2 visions which represented temptation, one was for duty(throne room destroyed, iron throne empty), one was for love(Drogo and their child), each time she gave up what she wanted in order to get her dragons.

Was it like the books? no.

Was it extremely well done? yes.

[Tourniquet]

I think non-book-readers would have been thoroughly confused with the visions from the novels. They haven't spent nearly enough time on the exposition that would have been required to have them make any sense.

[DaveSumm]

Name one vision from the book that would have made sense to TV viewers. The only conceivable candidate is the RW, and given that this is TV and not a book, you can't just vaguely describe a wedding, you'd have to show Stark men and the man on the throne.

I cannot for the life of me get my head round why anyone thought, after all the changes made this season, that the HotU visions would remotely resemble the book version.

[7V3N]

Name one vision from the book that would have made sense to TV viewers. The only conceivable candidate is the RW, and given that this is TV and not a book, you can't just vaguely describe a wedding, you'd have to show Stark men and the man on the throne.

I cannot for the life of me get my head round why anyone thought, after all the changes made this season, that the HotU visions would remotely resemble the book version.

Name one vision that truly made sense at the time. I knew those visions meant something and were foreshadowing events, but I just had no idea what events. I think it would have made as much sense to them as it did to me at the time.

And I always suspected it'd be different due to how this season has gone, but I had no idea they would cut it all and make something completely new (Pyat Pree is the only warlock?). I figured it'd go straight to the undying after a creepy scene of Dany passing through all sorts of hallways while hearing whispers and echoes.