[Book Spoilers] Stannis and Melisandre

[sarah.jenice]

The first thing I thought was that the first thing Mel looks for in the flames are threats to her life and I kept waiting for her to show some power like saying that she had seen this in the flames and he wont kill her.

I just really dont care for how they are being handled. The thing she said about him forsaking everything he once held dear makes him sound like a monster and I dont think Stannis has done that in the books. He's the only king who helps the Night's Watch and know about the Others.

They need to fix his portrayal.

[sumpthy]

In my IMHO, that was pathetic. Stannis is supposed to represent determination(to the point of stuborness at times), having him mop around about Renly(someone that declared himself as a enemy of Stannis) is just absurd.

He moped about in Dragonstone for half of A Storm of Swords.

[Lord Wadsworth]

I do worry about Mel's lines. With him betraying pretty much everything.

Stannis has always been my favorite contender for the Iron Throne.

I also hope the writers aren't spoiling things that will be coming in the future books.

[Lord Varys]

Well, Davos is going to come back. He will make sure that Stannis does the right thing in the end.

So this whole thing about him betraying everything might just be the same kind of crap as 'I'll give you a son'. I don't worry all that much about on that front. Stannis will go to the Wall and save the Night's Watch's ass. This is certainly not 'betraying everything you once hold dear'. Rather the opposite, actually...

But the idea that Shireen might end up becoming the would-be sacrifice still feels very wrong to me. It's good that she and Selyse will show up, but twisting the whole story will not do...

[Jamie Lannister]

It was harsh (choking her in itself was needlessly crude, in my opinion), but I appreciated this scene. It really showed Stannis lost to despair, with a hint of genuine guilt for what he did to Renly. And, more importantly, that what he did to Renly didn't matter. He completely failed in his attempt to take the throne.

[from the arbor]

idk but this cracked me up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyAm5Irqfuo

[HouseofStark]

i think i'm of the same mind as many people here. i enjoyed season 2, i thought it was fantastic tv, but one of my gripes has been the characterization of stannis. the show gives the impression that he's lusting after the iron throne and the books give the obverse view of it, in that he believes it is his duty to be king. there were some changes i liked, stannis going up the ladder and fighting was one, but overall i think this season didn't spend enough time with him and he came off looking like a villain.

now with melisandre, she's coming off as being a traditional witch that enchants the ruler of a realm, instead of religious fanatic who truely believes that stannis needs to be king. i can't remember the context, i can't remember which book, but there's a line she says that i think is very revealing about her true nature. in effect she says "do you think i would travel half way around the world to put another king on a throne?" obviously not verbatim, but i think that melisandre is the one that should be built up instead of the strictly manipulative one we've been given.

[Lady Octarina]

I think people are reading too much in what Melisandre tells him by the window. As I see it, both the "sacrifice your family" and "betray everything you once held dear" lines mean the same: if he truly wants to reach his goal, he'll have to embrace whatever means present themselves. He'll have to sacrifice his morals, , and do what has to be done. That doesn't necessarily means he'll try to kill Shireen or Selyse; there are many ways one can betray their family, and he has already betrayed by killing with Renly. I think it just means he'll continue to betray his vows by and everything he once believed by lying with Melisandre for magical purposes (or not - D.B. Weiss has basically declared that he sees their relationship as something more humane and flawed than what we generally agree on - that Stannis' involvement with her isn't purely for pragmatic purposes, but also a way to seek comfort, and I must say I agree with him). Also, we can't be sure they won't include Edric Storm - and, well, he kind of is his family too, so...

It's interesting, this episode made me realize Stannis' relationship with Melisandre is one of the most tender this season. Which only confirms how problematic romances are in Westeros. :cool4:

[Mulled Wino]

The first thing I thought was that the first thing Mel looks for in the flames are threats to her life and I kept waiting for her to show some power like saying that she had seen this in the flames and he wont kill her.

I just really dont care for how they are being handled. The thing she said about him forsaking everything he once held dear makes him sound like a monster and I dont think Stannis has done that in the books. He's the only king who helps the Night's Watch and know about the Others.

They need to fix his portrayal.

I agree 100%. I also came away with the impression of show Stannis being manipulated by Mel simply by takig advatage of his greed and lust for the Iron Throne. I feel like they've borderline ruined Stannis.

I let it slide because they clearly want him to appear to be the villian so there's more shock value when he smashes the wildlings.

I cannot let the Jon Snow plotline slide though from this season. It was a total joke and shameful that the producers are that far off on his character.

[Kevin79]

Stannis doesn't do too much in book 3 and clearly the TV series needs to keep showing him to remind the audience that he is around. I have a feeling that a lot of the prophecy stuff that people are crying for will be included in his scenes next year. It makes perfect sense that they excluded it from the HOTU now, since they need to give Stannis and Mel something to do over the next few seasons before they go to the wall and that something will in part be discussing the prophecies more in depth I think. We got a taste of it in the finale with Stannis looking into the fire.

[Sr.DavosSeaworth]

See, I am not overly disturbed by the scene. Stannis has always been prepared to do whatever is necessary to take the Iron Throne. Not because he wants it, but because it is his duty. If he has to kill Renly (or Cortnay) or be the first off the boats on the Blackwater, or sacrifice Edric, he will do it. The lines about betraying everyone are reminding the audience of that. I think that there is not a great deal of difference between book Stannis and HBO Stannis.

[jons nissa]

i think i'm of the same mind as many people here. i enjoyed season 2, i thought it was fantastic tv, but one of my gripes has been the characterization of stannis. the show gives the impression that he's lusting after the iron throne and the books give the obverse view of it, in that he believes it is his duty to be king. there were some changes i liked, stannis going up the ladder and fighting was one, but overall i think this season didn't spend enough time with him and he came off looking like a villain.

the thing is in the books we are usually getting davos' thoughts about stannis and well, davos is having a serious bromance with his king. i always read that stannis was willing to do anything and everything to get the throne but that he cannot admit to himself that he really just wants it. he's not a villian but he's not the hero he thinks he is. just another grey character. what we're seeing on the show are the things that happened off-screen in the books like how the shadow babies were created. davos wouldn't have seen that. i liked his anguish in the finale. it made him seem more human and again, i'm not sure he would have shown all that to davos.

i do believe his portrayal will soften a bit once he decides to head for the wall.

[Mad Queen]

Stannis in the books whines too much and is a little pathetic. I like it that in the show that they've made him actually scary, especially when he is strangling Mel. Some of the changes were silly (Stannis in the vanguard without a helm), but I still enjoyed them. It really shows that Stannis is doing something, not just whining about what a bunch of traitors everybody except Davos is.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Until the end of ASoS when he saved the Night's Watch, I loathed Stannis and thought him an evil, dark magic using kinslayer. I was rooting for Renly and really despised Stannis for killing him. It felt cheap and dirty. It really wasn't until ADWD that I started to warm up to him.

The point is, I think many viewers of the show will go through this same evolution with Stannis as well. He *was* depicted as a sort of detestable character in ACoK and the majority of ASoS. I predict many show fans will hate him even more if they go through with the Edric Storm story arc. For him to allow Melisandre to sacrifice an innocent boy will be very damning for him. I hope they keep this because it's so important in showing how great of a man Davos is. Without Edric, Davos won't have much to do in S3.

[Tenlaar]

I am not too fond of show Stannis at this point. The way I have always thought of the Baratheons is different kinds of metal.

Robert was bronze. He was crude, he could open your belly as easily as any other metal, but he was maleable.

Renly was gold. All flash and sparkles. Looked great and all the ladies (and half the lads) wanted to wear him, but his greatest asset was just charm.

Stannis is iron. He is unflinching, unyielding, and generally not so pretty to look at. But when it really hits the fan, you want iron in your hand.

I am just not seeing the man who puts honor and justice above all else, especially his own feelings about the subject. Throughout reading the books I have just never pictured Stannis as being one to lash out in petty, violent ways, especially while pleading for something at the same time, and especially especially not against a woman.

[Terilien]

Actually no. stannis was compared to Iron yes, but with the implication that iron, while hard, is also brittle, and breaks before it bends.

[Tenlaar]

Breaks before it bends, certainly. Brittle? Not even close.

[Baelor Blackfyre]

I enjoyed the scene for the same reason I enjoyed some of the added Theon scenes this season, such as him burning the letter to Robb. Their added insights into these characters, revealing parts of them we don't get to see in the books but expect to be there. We never get to see Stannis be conflicted about Melisandre, or see Theon conflicted about betraying Robb.

[Bambi]

I enjoyed the beginning of the scene and i hated the ending of it. Seriously, staring into the flames but not showing anything? It is teleVISION, if i wanted my mind to do the job instead of the shows visuality, i read the books... ok, budget, yeah i know, but it was purely done.

[StarkWard]

Breaks before it bends, certainly. Brittle? Not even close.

That's how Donal Noye described the Baratheons in ACoK.

Robert - the true steel

Stannis - iron, brittle, will break before he bends

Renly - copper, shiny and bright, not worth much at day's end.

Also, I don't think Mel's "You will betray" lines makes Stannis seem more evil. If anything, it made him more pitiful. Here is a man who will suffer for what he believes is right. Strangely enough, I associated him with Theon, who is loved by no one for "doing his duty".