[Book Spoilers] Stannis and Melisandre

[Lady Meera Reed]

This scene really pissed me off. Davos was the one thinking about strangling Mel for his sons (ASoS). And Stannis has a LOT of flaws, but violence against women is not one of them. That is Robert's forte, not Stannis' (who's actually y'know....the guy who despised Robert's flaws).

[Ghost714]

I hated this scene. Stannis no matter how angry, I can not see strangling a woman. Everybody keeps saying Stannis deserved to be angry, "because Melisandre told him he would win if he listened to her, and it was all a lie". If that were the case, then it might justify Stannis's manhandling of Mel, but that was not the case. Stannis's defeat was his own fault, Melisandre had delivered on her part all the way up until Stannis left her behind at Dragonstone. She promised him victory if she was at his side, but that promise was moot the second he desided to leave her behind for his own pride, "because he did not want men to call it her victory".

Then I hated the whole gazing into the fire crap. First off, it seemed incredibly cheap them looking into a little lamp, they should have gazed into a hearth fire, if anything. Secondly, they have been trying to make Stannis look like Melisandre's little puppet all season, making him look evil because she is evil. When in the books, neither of them are evil IMO, and Stannis was not Mel's puppet, they both used and played off of each other, not in a manipulative way. I know that's what we think at first in the books, but the show is being way to heavy handed with this(making them both look evil, and making Stannis dance for the "evil puppet master"). I am afraid that when they want to show these two characters as not being evil in the future, like they should, people won't buy it, because the show has made them "to evil". The "face turn" won't be believable.

To me, the show made it seem like, "Stannis was breaking free of the evil witches hold, and then she reeled him back in, by making him stare into the entrancing fire". I really hope I am wrong, and I hope Stannis saw the Fist of the First Men, like in the books. I just have so much doubt because D&D really think Stannis is "bad", and it's been showing all season in their writing of Stannis IMO. Just like D&D have made Arya and Tyrion "to good", I can very easily see them continuing to make Stannis more "bad" than he is in the books, if you can even call what he does In the books "bad". I hope people get what I am saying

Last, but not least, I hated how they totally made Mel look like "the evil little demon standing on Stannis's shoulder, and whispering in to his ear". That's completely original D&D, you are so very clever!

[Lord Varys]

Stannis does not allow his men to rape women (and gelds them, if he catches them doing it) because it's against the law. This does not mean, however, that Stannis does not chastise the women of his household. But I don't see him using violence on them, although it's plain that he does not like them very much. But when he strangled Mel he was not so much into 'I like abusing women'-mode, but he was trying to make a philosophical point: 'Your god has no apparently no power at all, woman. Else I could not kill you right then and there.'

He only backs down when he realizes that Melisandre, and her belief that he is the Chosen One of her god, are still his only hope left to succeed.

Stannis is a pragmatist. Killing Mel then and there would have gained him nothing. With her there is still some small hope left that he is going to win.

[DornishREDhotmama]

i totally got the feeling that stannis saw that mel was carrying his son in her womb. it's the look on his face and her face too. i don't know where they would be going with this deviation though.

[Jory]

I don't know what gets me more upset - that Stannis has turned into unlikeable Robert 2.0 or that fans actually like that.

[Jessica Bendis]

i totally got the feeling that stannis saw that mel was carrying his son in her womb. it's the look on his face and her face too. i don't know where they would be going with this deviation though.

I really REALLY hope this isn't the case.

And I never actually understood the "I will give you a son" line. She is referring to the shadow baby? I still have no idea what Stannis would be thinking in that scene...

--

I'm still very upset about Stannis choking Melisandre. Stannis is not impulsive and violent. Nothing ever hinted that in the books. That is what Robert would do, not Stannis.

The scene was very well acted, but they couldn't have deviated more from the book characters. Melisandre would never find herself in that situation (she survived drinking poison, only R'hllor knows how old and powerful she actually is and she glazes into the fire all the time. Come on!) and Stannis wouldn't atack anyone like this. He would be grinding his teeth and complaining in rage, perhaps, but not atacking someone else like this.

And then, when I think the scene couldn't get any worse, Melisandre tells him he'll betray everything he cares about to get the iron throne and he is actually ok with this as long as gets the iron throne?? This is awful. Now he actually wants the throne and the power? And he doesn't care at all about what she just told him? Are they setting him up like some kind of villain? I don't know if this is the personal view of the producers/writers or if they know something about the future of the book series and are already hinting that... And this worries me. Really. Stannis is my favorite character in this series.

I really like Stephen Dillane's acting, but the writing of his character has been really inconsistent this season. They didn't even set up his major character traits before we see him having sex with Melisandre. Everyone I know who watches the show think he is being manipulated by Melisandre. It's okay to think that while reading the second book, I guess, since we're seeing things from Davos's pov, but not in the show. I can't blame anyone for thinking that while watching the show.

I don't know what gets me more upset - that Stannis has turned into unlikeable Robert 2.0 or that fans actually like that.

I feel the same way. I was worried about him on the show since the first spoilers about him with Melisandre. After sunday's episode I thought we were going to see a whole lot of upset Stannis fans, but then all I see is approval of that scene.

[DornishREDhotmama]

i don't remember them actually having sex in the book. do they or don't they?

[Tenlaar]

That's how Donal Noye described the Baratheons in ACoK.

Yep, but I don't think it was accurate. Would anybody honestly call Stannis "brittle?" I never would.

[Kernest]

i don't remember them actually having sex in the book. do they or don't they?

It is heavily implied, as the shadow baby is said to look like Stannis, but no POV character was there to actually observe them doing it. Kinda like the books only imply Renly is gay, but the show throws it in the viewers faces.

Yep, but I don't think it was accurate. Would anybody honestly call Stannis "brittle?" I never would.

I think brittle is a bad word to use when talking about a person, but that's basically what you call something that breaks before it bends.

[sumpthy]

I enjoyed the beginning of the scene and i hated the ending of it. Seriously, staring into the flames but not showing anything? It is teleVISION, if i wanted my mind to do the job instead of the shows visuality, i read the books... ok, budget, yeah i know, but it was purely done.

They should have put it before the scene at the Fist of the First Men really, since that's what Stannis saw in the flames. (Though he only saw the Night's Watch and their ring of torches, not the attack by the others.

As for the sex. It's pretty explicit. Melissandre tells Davos that Stannis is too frail to make new shadow babies and invites him to come sleep with her to make more and in her POV chapter she says her bed hasn't seen much use since Stannis went off to war. It really surprises me how many people missed it.

[Jory]

Yes, Stannis probably porked Mel at least once. I don't think he knew, entirely, what the hell was going on with that, though... and I'm positive she did a better job of convincing him than saying "I will give you a son, your grace". Yeesh.

[Jory]

I really REALLY hope this isn't the case.

And I never actually understood the "I will give you a son" line. She is referring to the shadow baby? I still have no idea what Stannis would be thinking in that scene...

--

I'm still very upset about Stannis choking Melisandre. Stannis is not impulsive and violent. Nothing ever hinted that in the books. That is what Robert would do, not Stannis.

The scene was very well acted, but they couldn't have deviated more from the book characters. Melisandre would never find herself in that situation (she survived drinking poison, only R'hllor knows how old and powerful she actually is and she glazes into the fire all the time. Come on!) and Stannis wouldn't atack anyone like this. He would be grinding his teeth and complaining in rage, perhaps, but not atacking someone else like this.

And then, when I think the scene couldn't get any worse, Melisandre tells him he'll betray everything he cares about to get the iron throne and he is actually ok with this as long as gets the iron throne?? This is awful. Now he actually wants the throne and the power? And he doesn't care at all about what she just told him? Are they setting him up like some kind of villain? I don't know if this is the personal view of the producers/writers or if they know something about the future of the book series and are already hinting that... And this worries me. Really. Stannis is my favorite character in this series.

I really like Stephen Dillane's acting, but the writing of his character has been really inconsistent this season. They didn't even set up his major character traits before we see him having sex with Melisandre. Everyone I know who watches the show think he is being manipulated by Melisandre. It's okay to think that while reading the second book, I guess, since we're seeing things from Davos's pov, but not in the show. I can't blame anyone for thinking that while watching the show.

I'm with you, and I have the same worries. Stannis, while certainly treading dangerously close to villain territory in the first half of the books, really does make the right decisions in the second half - maybe they're exacerbating the "villainous" side of him so that his decision to listen to Davos and go to the Wall becomes all the more important and impacting. Then again, they may just have it so that Mance Rayder is actually a good guy and taking down the Wall wouldn't be so bad of a thing and oh no, mean Stannis comes to stop them. Or maybe Robb's ghost rides to the Wall instead of Stannis. Can you tell how disillusioned I am?

[ChromeWeasel]

Stannis is really pissed off in this scene. He really did everything what Mel asked of him, and he still did not got what he wanted, so he has every reason to be angry. And Mel being subservient to him and not trying to fight for her life (she could have easily killed him then and there, from what was revealed in ADwD) just underlines that she really thinks he is R'hllor's chosen one.

What was revealed in any of the books that suggests Mel could kill Stannis before he throttles her to death?

[Tenlaar]

I think brittle is a bad word to use when talking about a person, but that's basically what you call something that breaks before it bends.

Brittle implies more than simply breaking cleanly before it warps. Brittle implies a fundamental structural weakness. Glass is brittle. Porcelain is brittle.

Rocks don't bend before they break, would you call a rock brittle?

[Lord Wadsworth]

While I know some are upset about Stannis and his choking. I personally liked it because it showed him not being completely dominated by the Red Priestess.

I've never liked Mel, she constantly seems like she's leading Stannis and to a lesser extent Jon down a terrible path. So it was nice seeing Stannis showing her that her god wasn't doing much to stop him from choking her to death at that moment.

[Eirikr]

"Where is your god now? Will he save you?"

Can't help but think of

. Especially the comment after the priestly fight.

[Puck the Goat]

Stannis is a self-righteous, narcissist.

He does whatever it takes to get the throne.

His brother stood in his way... he made a big faux pas and kill him.

How did he kill him? Another faux pas - infidelity to his wife via making a shadow baby with Mel.

Mel screwed up in Stannis' eyes... so what's he going to do? Choke a witch. No matter how he feels about women.

[DornishREDhotmama]

Yes, Stannis probably porked Mel at least once. I don't think he knew, entirely, what the hell was going on with that, though... and I'm positive she did a better job of convincing him than saying "I will give you a son, your grace". Yeesh.

It is heavily implied, as the shadow baby is said to look like Stannis, but no POV character was there to actually observe them doing it. Kinda like the books only imply Renly is gay, but the show throws it in the viewers faces.

Then I am pretty sure that is where they are headed with this. I thought that immediately when they showed the mel/stannis sex scene. Why else would they want to make it clear that they had sex. Stannis is Mel's baby daddy. lol]

[Jessica Bendis]

While I know some are upset about Stannis and his choking. I personally liked it because it showed him not being completely dominated by the Red Priestess.

I've never liked Mel, she constantly seems like she's leading Stannis and to a lesser extent Jon down a terrible path. So it was nice seeing Stannis showing her that her god wasn't doing much to stop him from choking her to death at that moment.

A have a friend who really dislikes Stannis and Melisandre. She was very pleased with this scene for the reason you mentioned. The problem here is that for the purpose of showing something that should be clear right from the start (Stannis is not being manipulated), they are changing some of his character traits, making him act just like the brother he despises and complains about.

Also, right after this they go gaze into the fire and I've seen a lot of people on internet thinking she cast a spell on him or something. Why would they think this? Maybe because they didn't even bother to show what he was seeing.

If they had written this story properly, we wouldn't need ooc scenes to demonstrante a simple point like this one.

I don't care about some changes, really. For instance, in the show Stannis clearly makes the decision to kill Renly. In the books, when he talked to Davos right after Renly got killed, he didn't seem to know the true nature of his brother's death. I didn't mind, because we really don't know what happened in the books.

But some things just don't make any sense.

In the books we knew from the first book that Stannis is a rigid and just man (he even wanted to ban the brothels in King's Landing, for heaven's sakes!). So when we find out about shadow babies, we know what him and Melisandre did wasn't something he would normally do.

In the show they didn't care about stablishing his character first. They didn't show Selyse, so her lines go to Melisandre in the first episode. In the books, Stannis is the one who questions if the Lord of Light has any ships or something. They took that from him in and gave it to Cressen or Davos in the show. Fine.

Then we just see Melisandre trying to convince him to have sex and he says no. But then she says she'll give him a son, he just accepts it and goes with it. (It was that easy, even if it doesn't make any logical sense.) She doesn't explain how that would help their cause or anything. So that is confusing. Was she talking about a shadow baby? It's obvious he didn't know about this, so what was he thinking, really?

Then Davos convinces him to not take Melisandre with them to the Battle of Blackwater (Stannis' idea in the books).

So in the last episode they seem to regret a bit what they did during the season. They show only now Stannis' emotions over Renly's death and try to compensate all they took from his character during this series in one scene to prove something they had plenty of opportunities to do during almost ten episodes...

Sorry for the long post, but this really bothered me. lol

[Lord Over]

Stannis has become the Burger King with his 'Where is your God, now' schtick. It'll be hard for me to take him seriously, after that.