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Could Melisandre resurrect Jon Snow?


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#1 YazzyYaz

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 02:02 PM

We have seen in aSoS how Thoros would resurrect Beric Dondarrion from the dead, not mentioning Catelyn Stark as well, and both he and Melisandre are servants of the Lord of Light.

Melisandre did warn Jon Snow about tidings from the sky, which he didn't put much thought to until too late. Could Melisandre be able to resurrect Jon from death, if he actually died?

Another thing, why would the Night's Watch even attack Jon Snow, other than the fact that they viewed his actions of leaving the watch behind and facing the Bastard of Bolton to be nothing more than acts of treason. Remember, the Night's Watch takes no part in the affairs of the realm, and for Jon to leave behind the watch on personal affairs could be considered desertion. I recall how they said to Jon, "For the Watch" as they stabbed him (I'm paraphrasing here). Could be they viewed his actions as those of a deserter.

#2 Holy_Seven!

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 02:26 PM

"

Another thing, why would the Night's Watch even attack Jon Snow, other than the fact that they viewed his actions of leaving the watch behind and facing the Bastard of Bolton to be nothing more than acts of treason. Remember, the Night's Watch takes no part in the affairs of the realm, and for Jon to leave behind the watch on personal affairs could be considered desertion. I recall how they said to Jon, "For the Watch" as they stabbed him (I'm paraphrasing here). Could be they viewed his actions as those of a deserter."




Well he also let Stannis and his Lords take over forts and settle the gift which by rights belong to the Night's Watch. And He is also opening the gates for wildlings to pass through the wall which most of the Night's Watch seem is the opposite of their duties.


Edited by Holy_Seven!, 04 June 2012 - 02:26 PM.


#3 YazzyYaz

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:32 PM

Yes, but that was done for the safety of the realm. Jon convinced his brothers of this, even though they were in doubt.

His final actions, if you recall, also asked his brothers to join him to march to Winterfell, of their own free will, without being bounded by the Night's Watch vows. Those actions are viewed as treason and desertion. Not that I'm against what he wanted to do, but we have to see how his brothers viewed his actions.

#4 StannisandDaeny

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:48 PM

It was done for their own safety. They feared Bolton's threats, so they decided to stab him in favour of the regime that has done nothing for them, as opposed to Stannis.

So far we don't know if Melisandre can resurrect people... She's a Red Priestess, but not all Red Priests may have the same abilities. Her ability to summon Shadows may be compensated by an inability to resurrect, who knows... Another problem is even getting Jon's corpse though, 'cos depending on how many Night's Watch men are traitors, some will be coming for her to deliver her to Ramsay.

#5 Jabronius Maximus

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:49 PM

Yes she probably could - Thoros seems to be able to do it at will, but the way Mel feels her flesh searing and burning even with a smaller spell, it may take a lot out of her to do it. Despite that, for some reason I see this as an opportunity for Bloodraven to finally speak to Jon, and possibly save him.

On one of the SSMs, GRRM said "oh you think he's dead, do you?" to a question regarding Jon. This makes me think he's not even dead, but maybe like Bran was after his fall.
Those guys who did it for the watch are about to get raped by all of Jon's wildling friends, and I'm pretty sure this is one of the events that will lead to the NW being completely dissolved.

Edited by Part time king, 04 June 2012 - 03:50 PM.


#6 StannisandDaeny

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:53 PM

GRRM said "oh you think he's dead, do you?"


That smartass. He wrote the scene almost identically to how Catelyn died and then has the nerve to say this? xD I think few people think Jon is really dead, it seems to me with most people it's more a question of 'how will he survive and how will it affect the story?'

#7 OfTarth

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:56 PM

Yes, but that was done for the safety of the realm. Jon convinced his brothers of this, even though they were in doubt.

His final actions, if you recall, also asked his brothers to join him to march to Winterfell, of their own free will, without being bounded by the Night's Watch vows. Those actions are viewed as treason and desertion. Not that I'm against what he wanted to do, but we have to see how his brothers viewed his actions.


Actually, I'm pretty sure he told his brothers he wouldn't ask them to come, and asked any wildling that would join him to come instead.


Also, I recall a scene where Melisandre is looking in her fire, and sees an image of Jon going from man to wolf back to man, so I think he will warg into Ghost, then be resurrected.

Edited by OfTarth, 04 June 2012 - 04:00 PM.


#8 Lord Roivas

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:00 PM

I thought it was made fairly clear that to people like Bowen Marsh, Jon Snow was completely breaking his vow and ruining the Night's Watch.

Can Melisandre resurrect or heal Jon Snow assuming he actually died? I wouldn't put it past her, she seems to be at her strongest at the wall.

As for the Night's Watch, I think they are in serious trouble. They have a bunch of problems stacking around them. The Boltons are threatening them, they have the smallest numbers they've ever had, the wars of Westeros have become involved in the wall, thousands of wildlings are now south of the wall, the others and an unknown number of wights are probably getting ready to come down on them, and they are fighting amongst themselves.

#9 baxter

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:02 PM

Yet the whole scene makes no sense, why is Wun Wun being attacked in the first place. They could have easily just stabbed the hell out of Jon. Wun Wun is flinging (not in front of me, but is it Ser Patrick?) a southron knight, and has wounds. How would the Crows have been able to stab Wun Wun and then have him turn on the Queens men and not the NW involved?

Can you imagine this going down on the fly, literally no time to prepare?
Bowen: "you, you go stab the giant,"
Random Crow: "are you fucking serious, he's a giant, how the hell would I survive"
Bowen: "its for the night's watch, we're going to kill LC Snow by dramatically stabbing him 3 to 4 times instead of just hacking him down with swords and making quick work of it"
Random Crow: "are you fucking serious, he's a giant"

the last line was for humor, but you get my drift, too many things are aligned here, maybe the knights are all just randomly chilling by Wun Wun (hard to believe since they keep mentioning how segregated the queens men are), maybe a crow shoots him with an arrow... but if that was the case, the queens men would have been after the crow you would think. There would have been rabble rousing. What happened to the people following Jon outside from the hall, how come he is just fighting alone.

Too much going on there I say. I'm still of the belief Jon rises up, but this scene was not straightforward at all. I don't think it was just a vision, I don't understand why the warg would try to get in Wun Wun, I don't get how the NW orchestrated it on the fly so successfully, I don't understand why no wildlings are around Jon or even mentioned once leaving the hall, there's no Melisandre, there is the shedding of tears, the wound smoking, etc. Add to that, the NW if I understand are significantly out numbered on the Wall now by knights and wildlings, do they think they can just catch everyone off guard, kill LC Snow and then not get their asses handed to them by the Wildling faithful that are now behind Jon? Even if they do, a freaking host is supposedly about to march on them from the South, they don't have "Arya" or Reek/Theon so how do they plan to halt the Boltons. Leave Castle Black? Give them Jon Snow's body, like that would do anything...

Something is up here.

Edited by baxter, 04 June 2012 - 04:07 PM.


#10 OfTarth

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:07 PM

Yet the whole scene makes no sense, why is Wun Wun being attacked in the first place. They could have easily just stabbed the hell out of Jon. Wun Wun is flinging (not in front of me, but is it Ser Patrick?) a southron knight, and has wounds. How would the Crows have been able to stab Wun Wun and then have him turn on the Queens men and not the NW involved?

Can you imagine this going down on the fly, literally no time to prepare?
Bowen: "you, you go stab the giant,"
Random Crow: "are you fucking serious, he's a giant, how the hell would I survive"
Bowen: "its for the night's watch, we're going to kill LC Snow by dramatically stabbing him 3 to 4 times instead of just hacking him down with swords and making quick work of it"
Random Crow: "are you fucking serious, he's a giant"


The knight Wun Wun was killing/getting attacked by was Ser Patrek, and he was going to steal Val to marry her.

Wun Wun was guarding her tower.

Edited by OfTarth, 04 June 2012 - 04:07 PM.


#11 StannisandDaeny

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:07 PM

The Southron knight attacked Wun Wun because he was frustrated he had just heard Stannis had died, I think. It was an exceedingly stupid thing to do but then some characters are simply exceedingly stupid.

#12 YazzyYaz

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:31 PM

Since one of the posters above pointed out that Jon was stabbed, not hacked, perhaps he isn't dead, but it still begs the question of why the Night's Watch did what they did?

Possible theories I could come up with which are probably all wrong since this is confusing as hell is:

1) Those under the command of Bowen Marsh stabbed Jon because of a coup d'etat to overthrow him as LC, but most of the Night's Watch played no part in the small groups actions.

2) They were following Melisandre's orders to keep Jon from going south of the Wall for his own protection, with her promising the group that she will heal him back in time.

3) The Queen's Men might have had a hand in this because of their frustration with Jon keeping Val protected and letting the wildlings south.

4) Wildlings didn't come out to protect Jon in time because most of them were feasting in the hall with Tormund, and the ones who were out possibly didn't interfere because they hated Jon for being a turncloak and betraying the King-Beyond-The-Wall.

5) Perhaps all of them conspired together?


I have no real clue on how to decipher this, this was the one chapter I read several times because of my confusion.

#13 kneo

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:46 PM

The wildlings won't attack Bowen Marsh or his men because their sons are captive. Ghost is locked in Jon's chamber if I remember correctly, while Wun Wun will die by the quen's men...Rest of the men who were loyal to Jon, have just remained without a leader....so they won't do much.
The question is, what will Bowen Marsh and his men do with Jon's body. The first thing that came in my mind is that they will try to burn it unless Melisandre will stop them.

#14 kneo

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:50 PM

Since one of the posters above pointed out that Jon was stabbed, not hacked, perhaps he isn't dead, but it still begs the question of why the Night's Watch did what they did?

Possible theories I could come up with which are probably all wrong since this is confusing as hell is:

1) Those under the command of Bowen Marsh stabbed Jon because of a coup d'etat to overthrow him as LC, but most of the Night's Watch played no part in the small groups actions.

2) They were following Melisandre's orders to keep Jon from going south of the Wall for his own protection, with her promising the group that she will heal him back in time.

3) The Queen's Men might have had a hand in this because of their frustration with Jon keeping Val protected and letting the wildlings south.

4) Wildlings didn't come out to protect Jon in time because most of them were feasting in the hall with Tormund, and the ones who were out possibly didn't interfere because they hated Jon for being a turncloak and betraying the King-Beyond-The-Wall.

5) Perhaps all of them conspired together?


I have no real clue on how to decipher this, this was the one chapter I read several times because of my confusion.

They thought they did it for the watch. They couldn't let Jon go south and start a war against the warden of the north. Also I'm sure they planned this for a while. Bowen showed discontent for each decision Jon took regarding the wildlings and Stannis. They thought they are doing the right thing for the watch.

#15 StannisandDaeny

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:52 PM

How is Melisandre going to stop a determined force of armed men though? She has some ability to attack with flames which she demonstrated by killing the warged Hawk but I fear it's not powerful enough to strike down a whole group of men.

#16 OfTarth

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:53 PM

They thought they did it for the watch. They couldn't let Jon go south and start a war against the warden of the north. Also I'm sure they planned this for a while. Bowen showed discontent for each decision Jon took regarding the wildlings and Stannis. They thought they are doing the right thing for the watch.


Exactly. They saw the decisions Jon was making (letting the wildings south of the Wall, sending the fleet to get them from Hardhome, giving wildings the forts and castles to garrision, granting them land in the Gift, etc) as harmful to the watch, and when he announced he was going south to Winterfell, it was too much. They acted as they saw fit to protect the watch.

#17 OfTarth

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:54 PM

How is Melisandre going to stop a determined force of armed men though? She has some ability to attack with flames which she demonstrated by killing the warged Hawk but I fear it's not powerful enough to strike down a whole group of men.


I don't think it's a whole force of men. I think it's just a few of the old Night's Watch men like Bowen Marsh, Othell Yarwyck, etc. The other men of the Watch and the Queen's men weren't involved.

#18 CrypticWeirwood

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 07:00 PM

The wildlings won't attack Bowen Marsh or his men because their sons are captive. Ghost is locked in Jon's chamber if I remember correctly,

You have that all backwards: it’s Jon who’s trapped in Ghost’s chamber.

#19 Gandalf The Gay

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 03:55 AM

Jon Snow is Dope

#20 Harland Flint

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:35 AM

Regarding Jon's resurrection, Mel has stated that there's power in King's Blood. I think it's possible that Mel burns Shireen to raise Jon.
If you buy the R+L=J theory (which I do), then burning Shireen who has greyscale could make Jon a "Stone Dragon" as prophesied.