253 replies to this topic

[Kolantero]

AGirlCanFight, on 18 August 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

3) I haven't seen anyone mention this before, but the way that Wick and Bowen Marsh behave seems amiss to me.   When Wick slashes at him he backs away with his hands up as if it wasn't him (could just be self-defense though).  Also, why is Bowen Marsh crying?  A tough man of the NW and he cries when attacking an oathbreaker that has been continually angering him? (Perhaps just the shame in having to do it?)   Could be me grabbing at straws, but I get a feeling they didn't want or mean to do this.

Wick backs off and does the "not me" gesture only after Jon has disarmed him by grabbing his hand and forcing him to drop his dagger. Wick's reaction is normal as he is very afraid since now he is unarmed while Jon, who is an excellent fighter, can draw his sword (something he tries to do) and kill him easily. Bowen's tears also seem natural since he believes that he has to kill his Lord Commander and even though he believes his actions are justified, it is natural to be conflicted and upset about it.

I don't know if what you suggest is true or not, but their actions and behaviour seem natural to me.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I was just thinking of maester aemon's last words to jon snow.
Kill the boy, kill the boy and let the man be born.
I think that's what is happening. The daggers in the dark have killed the boy. And now the man can be born.

[John Reynolds]

Hmadkour, on 10 September 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

"Born amidst salt and smoke" smoke came out of his wounds, and IIRC there was salt in the NW granaries.So if Mel heals/ressurects him, he will be AA/TPTWP

Even closer to Jon was Bowen Marsh's tears, which contain salt.

[OberynBlackfyre]

My theory is as goes:  

Considering that I believe Jon Snow to be the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar, I believe that Jon is the son that Rhaegar believed was to be the "prince that was promised."  In many ways Jon has fulfilled this legacy because he is really the only one fighting the actual "battle".  He has bolstered the realm by strengthening the wall, and has gone to long lengths to try and learn the weaknesses of the White Walkers.  Even kill the woman he loved (though it was indirectly, she died under an order that he gave).  What hero do we know was born from doing this exact thing??  

If Melisandre does heal/ resurrect him (that's IF he is even dead), then I think that in this rebirth he will realize who he actually is, and ergo realize that his destiny is to be the hero of the realm.

[jarl the climber]

Kolantero, on 14 September 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Wick backs off and does the "not me" gesture only after Jon has disarmed him by grabbing his hand and forcing him to drop his dagger. Wick's reaction is normal as he is very afraid since now he is unarmed while Jon, who is an excellent fighter, can draw his sword (something he tries to do) and kill him easily. Bowen's tears also seem natural since he believes that he has to kill his Lord Commander and even though he believes his actions are justified, it is natural to be conflicted and upset about it.

I don't know if what you suggest is true or not, but their actions and behaviour seem natural to me.

I agree, the only thing that seemed odd about his last chapter was when Jon compared Wun Wun swinging Ser Patreks body around to Arya swinging her doll around when confronted by a plate of vegatables. I can see Alys karstark reminding him or Arya but Wun Wun? Jons actions in his last chapter do kind of contradict his actions earlier in the book. On the other hand there is a rational way to explain this.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

jarl the climber, on 20 September 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

I agree, the only thing that seemed odd about his last chapter was when Jon compared Wun Wun swinging Ser Patreks body around to Arya swinging her doll around when confronted by a plate of vegatables. I can see Alys karstark reminding him or Arya but Wun Wun? Jons actions in his last chapter do kind of contradict his actions earlier in the book. On the other hand there is a rational way to explain this.

I don't think this is out of character. How is comparing wun wun with arya a big deal when he was doing something similar to arya. Its a simple comparison in my eyes. I think his reaction to the letter is enough to show jon is acting irrationally and not really himself. Usually he would think to answer the letter would involve himself into the politics of the realm and he'd break his vows. So he would simply ignore it or answer it by using those words to keep out of the politics. Maybe later hatching a more clever plan against the evil bastard. But instead jon gets fired up rallies the wildings and has his mind set on his cause. In return his sworn brothers act immediatly to assasinate him before he can involve the watch any further. I don't think he's truly dead. If he is I could see him being resurrected. If he wasn't his chapters were almost a waste of time. All we got from jon is an idea of the wall and lands beyond. His story feels so unfinished.

Edited by liam stark, 20 September 2012 - 09:07 PM.

[The Annazon]

YazzyYaz, on 04 June 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

We have seen in aSoS how Thoros would resurrect Beric Dondarrion from the dead, not mentioning Catelyn Stark as well, and both he and Melisandre are servants of the Lord of Light.

Melisandre did warn Jon Snow about tidings from the sky, which he didn't put much thought to until too late. Could Melisandre be able to resurrect Jon from death, if he actually died?

Another thing, why would the Night's Watch even attack Jon Snow, other than the fact that they viewed his actions of leaving the watch behind and facing the Bastard of Bolton to be nothing more than acts of treason. Remember, the Night's Watch takes no part in the affairs of the realm, and for Jon to leave behind the watch on personal affairs could be considered desertion. I recall how they said to Jon, "For the Watch" as they stabbed him (I'm paraphrasing here). Could be they viewed his actions as those of a deserter.

With Melliandre its either she is right on the mark e.i shadow babies or she is terribly wrong, e.i Stannis being AA.

[Dany Jon or Bust]

I think Mel is just about capable of anything.  On top of that she is extremely beautiful.  

Jon will be just fine.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

There is a line in a feast for crows.  When jon speaks about swordplay how he needs to be like his valyrian steel sword. Which is Spell Forged and nigh on indestructible. Maybe when he is resurected. He'll be reborn and be more like his sword.

[evita mgfs]

Regarding Wun Wun, Martin discloses Jon’s partiality for the giant because of Hodor:  “He reminded Jon of Hodor.  Hodor twice as big, twice as strong, and half as clever” (DWD 518).
“Truth be told, he would have been loath to part with Wun Wun.  You know nothing, Jon Snow, Ygritte might say, but Jon spoke with the giant whenever he ould, through Leathers or one of the freefolk they had brought back from the grove, and he was learning more about his people and their history.  He only wished Sam were here to write them down” (DWD 518).
**”That was not to say that he was blind to the danger Wun Wun represented.   The giant would lash out violently when threatened, and those huge hands were strong enough to rip a man apart” (518).
Those at the Wall know Jon’s soft spot for Wun Wun, so Ides of Marsh plans to use the giant as a means to draw Jon Snow to a designated location once official word is given after JS reads Ramsay’s letter in the Shieldhall.
Egged on by JS’s plan to march a wildling army against Bolton – after hearing the wildling King-Beyond-the-Wall may still be alive – on top of their personal grudges against Jon Snow and their idealistic subterfuge of committing murder for “the Watch” by eliminating JS,  the Ides of Marsh conspiracy has sufficient provocation to set their ‘plans’ into motion.
Ser Patrek of the Mountain is assigned the job of causing a distraction by engaging Wun Wun in sword play. Earlier, Ser Patrek had a run in with Jon Snow and Wun Wun; as a result, Jon defended the giant by scolding Ser Patrek, offering a Neddism:
“My lord father used to say a man should never draw his sword unless he means to use it” (582).
Ser Patrek is offended by a ‘boy’ – Jon Snow – scolding him in the presence of his queen and fellow soldiers. Note the exchange of words:

“I had been given to understand that the Night’s Watch defended the realm against such monsters. No one mentioned keeping them as pets.”
Another bloody southron fool. “You are . . . ?”
“Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain, if it please my lord.”
“I do not know how you observe guest right on your mountain, ser. In the north we hold it sacred. Wun Wun is a guest here.”
Ser Patrek smiled. “Tell me, Lord Commander, should the Others turn up, do you plan to offer hospitality to them as well?” (583).

Secretly, Ser Patrek hopes for a chance to one-up the Giant and get even with Snow. [When discussing Val and the wildling custom of stealing a woman to prove strength, cunning, and courage, Jon warns Ser Patrek that “the suitor risks being caught by the woman’s kin, and worse than that if she herself finds him unworthy” (901).
Ser Patrek takes this as a challenge – and no doubt recalls Snow’s reprimand about ‘steel’ –
“Ser Patrek chuckled. ‘No man [such as you, Jon Snow] has ever had cause to question my courage. No woman ever will’” (901).
Moreover, Ser Patrek knows Wun Wun’s trigger – exposed steel – a dangerous weapon. Ides of Marsh & Co. figure that if Jon Snow hears his “beloved” giant cry out in distress, he will come running, as he has on other occasions. Ides of Marsh & Co. take advantage of Jon’s soft spot for Wun Wun– BUT

Is Wun Wun drunk? This could explain why he is SO out-of-control, ripping Ser Patrek limb from limb, why Wun Wun ignores Jon’s orders to stop. Jon also orders Leathers to talk to Wun Wun in the Old Tongue; assuming Leathers obeys his LC, Wun Wun is in such a state, he does not heed Jon or Leathers. Jon made mention of the Giant’s taste for wine when Mully asks his Lord Commander to send him wine at Hardin’s.
Jon replies, “ ‘For you, not him [Wun Wun].’ Wun Wun had never tasted wine until he came to Castle Black, but once he had, he had taken a gigantic liking to it. Too much a liking. Jon had enough to contend with just now without adding a drunken giant to the mix” (582).
Ser Patrek also heard this exchange. Consequently, Ser Patrek very well could have sent/brought the wine to Wun Wun with an ulterior motive to sauce up the Giant in the hopes of weakening his responses. Whether Ser Patrek, Mully, Val, or other ? advanced wine to Wun Wun, I propose that Wun Wun’s violent outburst is, in part, due to alcohol consumption.
Ides of Marsh draws JS to their target location – but Ser Patrek was not supposed to die.  He is a casualty of the conspiracy.

[kid canada]

just re-read aDwD and picked up on this particular description:

“In the next, casks of salt beef, salt pork, salt mutton, and salt cod were stacked ten feet high. Three hundred hams and three thousand long black sausages hung from ceiling beams below the smokehouse. In the spice locker they found peppercorns, cloves, and cinnamon, mustard seeds, coriander, sage and clary sage and parsley, blocks of salt.”
So in one small description, GRRM refers to both the salt and smoke required for the AA theory.  I think its very possible that, with Jon's murder, all hell has broken out amongst the wildlings and members of the NW..during this chaos, I believe mel will gather up his body (she is said to be very strong) and take it to the storeroom for protection and there, give him the 'kiss of life' (similar to the one Catelyn was given).
Thoughts?

[Volantis]

LaroC, on 26 June 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Yep. I agree. Melissandre staying on the Wall is no coincidence. And this theory about the faked letter by some Night's Watch schemers realy fits.
I just hope Jonstays don't turn up to be an undead or a boring mute trapped spirit inside Ghost...

How the hell did this "Nights Watch schemer" know Mance was alive?

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

kid canada, on 02 October 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

just re-read aDwD and picked up on this particular description:

“In the next, casks of salt beef, salt pork, salt mutton, and salt cod were stacked ten feet high. Three hundred hams and three thousand long black sausages hung from ceiling beams below the smokehouse. In the spice locker they found peppercorns, cloves, and cinnamon, mustard seeds, coriander, sage and clary sage and parsley, blocks of salt.”
So in one small description, GRRM refers to both the salt and smoke required for the AA theory.  I think its very possible that, with Jon's murder, all hell has broken out amongst the wildlings and members of the NW..during this chaos, I believe mel will gather up his body (she is said to be very strong) and take it to the storeroom for protection and there, give him the 'kiss of life' (similar to the one Catelyn was given).
Thoughts?

The salt and smoke is sausages and foodstuffs. Interesting theory for sure. But I think the salt and smoke may be part of mel's healing spells. We learned about her pyromancing powders. And salt is a very useful healing and purifying agent

[Gonzalo]

The salt and smoke have already been provided by Marsh's tears (which contain salt) and Jon's "smoking" wounds

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Maybe. That's definitely not proof either. So your saying he was born from getting stabbed. I could see born from being healed from being stabbed. But I still think he needs the reforging or spell forging to be like his sword. But that's my own vision of it.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Lord Liam DarkStark, on 02 October 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Maybe. That's definitely not proof either. So your saying he was born from getting stabbed. I could see born from being healed from being stabbed. But I still think he needs the reforging or spell forging to be like his sword. But that's my own vision of it.

an idea i had is that he's reborn when he gets stabbed....so as ghost/jon he has already become AA and getting back into his body is just semantics as far as the prophecy is concerned

[evita mgfs]

Mel uses a glamor, Arya's power as a FM is even stronger, for she wears a hood to change her appearance, yet she is still a warg;  warging and such is the power of the North.
If JS dies, the North will resurrect him - or simply, Ghost will return Jon to his icy corpse, and he will be a new creature unlike a wight or other, created by a man-warg-before beast took over.

But I think the WF crypts are warded 'against' the 'beast memories' of the former Starks, still alive in some ravens, but available through the weirnet.  After the Bolton breach of hospitality, the old gods will seek retribution - as foretold by Bran when he promises Lady Hornwood:  "Winterfell Remembers", but until RavenBran, the truth the FM knew is forgotten in WF.
Bran will have a vengeful spirit - at first.  As he tells the COF, men would be wroth - they would fight.  Bran will do his best from his weirwood throne.

[Trinket2]

OfTarth, on 04 June 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Exactly.  They saw the decisions Jon was making (letting the wildings south of the Wall, sending the fleet to get them from Hardhome, giving wildings the forts and castles to garrision, granting them land in the Gift, etc) as harmful to the watch, and when he announced he was going south to Winterfell, it was too much.  They acted as they saw fit to protect the watch.

This. I miss the "like"-button.

I also think it's obvious that Jon is not permanently dead. It's possible that Melisandre will resurrect him, but then she'd have the problem of what to do with him. She can't just have a previously dead commander who the rest of the Night's watch don't want in command anymore walking around. If she'll resurrect him, he'll be using some kind of glamor.
My bet though is that he'll warg into something or someone. There is a reason that Varamyr's POV was the prologue.

[The Manticore Knight]

Jon is not dead. He never felt the fourth stab, so I think either Ghost or Thormund arrives to save him. Either Melisandre or Val will heal him(not ressurrect - he isn't dead)

[Commander Jon Snow]

I think so. And I also think her and Jon are gonna make some shadow babies.