265 replies to this topic

[White Rabbit]

Of course she could, she's genuinely skilled in magic and I've no doubt that she's much more powerful than any other red priest in Westeros. But still I think that Jon who is permanently dead  is more intersting than Jon who is alive. Yeah, I know it's horrible, but I LOVE unexpected twists in stories

[Lord Varys]

Well, there is the chance that Jon might be resurrected the same way Beric and Cat were. Just because we never same Mel giving any one R'hllor's kiss of fire, doesn't mean she can't do it.

I assume something different however. Jon is obviously mortally wounded when we leave him in ADwD (being stabbed both between the shoulder blades and into the stomach is mortal eventually in a world like Westeros). But his body might not be dead yet when he feels 'only the cold'. That might actually be Ghost's feelings that very moment.

It's somewhat more likely, I guess that Mel arrives right on time to take care of/heal Jon's body. Perhaps the same way Moqorro healed Victarion with fire in ADwD. Then the skinchanger Borroq is at Castle Black to realize that Jon's spirit is trapped within his direwolf Ghost.

So the final step after healing Jon's body would be to get him warging back into his own body. I guess this will be possible with Borroq's/Mel's/Bran's assistance.

[FalconGK]

I think Jon is dead, and is going to be in an animal (most certainly Ghost) until he is resurrected (by Mel or perhaps Bloodraven or Bran).  The biggest clue I get to this is that the preface chapter with the warg who talks about his second life.  All of that would be pretty worthless unless it was foreshadowing that Wargs can die and still be alive.  The guy even talks about how he'd have his old memories for awhile, but eventually they would go away.  So Jon has time, but he's on a clock or he'll "become" Ghost.

Just my 2 coppers.

[Feather Crystal]

IMO, I think Melisandre will simply heal Jon's stab wounds similar to Moqorro's healing of Victarion....with fire. Victarion is amazed that his hand is stronger than ever, even though its burned and black. I think Melisandre's fire healing will make all of Jon's wounds stronger than ever, including his previously wounded, burned hand. She did say to Jon that she was his only hope.

[Puck the Goat]

Two things...

we don't know that each red priest/priestess only has one big power... we've only seen each of them use a specific power.

also, Jon opening the gate to the wildlings may look like he was abandoning his duty, but he is actually reminding the NW of their duty - to protect against the others. They've just spent so much time fighting wildlings that they thought it was their duty.

[FalconGK]

Puck the Goat, on 05 June 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

also, Jon opening the gate to the wildlings may look like he was abandoning his duty, but he is actually reminding the NW of their duty - to protect against the others. They've just spent so much time fighting wildlings that they thought it was their duty.

WE know that, but that doesn't mean the hardliners of the watch know that.

[Impin'ain'teasy]

FalconGK, on 05 June 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

I think Jon is dead, and is going to be in an animal (most certainly Ghost) until he is resurrected (by Mel or perhaps Bloodraven or Bran).  The biggest clue I get to this is that the preface chapter with the warg who talks about his second life.  All of that would be pretty worthless unless it was foreshadowing that Wargs can die and still be alive.  The guy even talks about how he'd have his old memories for awhile, but eventually they would go away.  So Jon has time, but he's on a clock or he'll "become" Ghost.

Just my 2 coppers.

I agree with this. The Prologue to every book has a specific purpose. In GoT it was establishing The Others as a threat. Second book was to establish Melisandre and Stannis, third about The Others being a threat, fourth about the Citadel subplot.

Varamyr's prologue I thought might have something to do with Bran (as he's the only one to fully except his powers). That said Jon Snow was named dropped in that chapter specifically. Maybe that chapter has some sort of clue?

Also GRRM said we'd be seeing more of the North. If we as an audience are being exposed to a new part of the world with it's potential mysteries, I think it's only a smart move through the narrative to see it through Jon Snow's perspective to keep people invested in the story. Also we know too much about Melisandre's power to just assume she doesn't play a role in Jon Snow's future.

[Jaqen H'ghar's Real Face]

I feel like Jon is going to go through what Bran went through he is going to be with Ghost (unconscious or dead) making him a more powerful Warg.

[Lord Rivers]

Of course melisandre will resurrect jon, hell Beric Dondarrion resurrected Cat after dying 6 times, no problem for the Red Priestess.  The interesting part will be Jon's moving to worship Rhillor instead of the Old gods, thus preparing him to fight the others

[Barristan the Boss]

I'm seriously starting to doubt Mel's intentions...I mean, she is talking about defeating the Others (pretty obvious enemy), but what if say Robert and Ned were still alive? Would she still make Stannis rebel against the throne, because he is the champion of fire? She made him kill his younger brother, she could have conjured up her shadow to take Robert too if he were still king. This is insanely crackpot, but what if she actually had a hand in Robert's death? That would conveniently give Stannis the best claim to the throne...

Edited by Part time king, 05 June 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[YazzyYaz]

I SERIOUSLY doubt that we will see more of the north through Jon's perspective. If you look at the distance from the wall to far north of the wall, that's a lot of distance to cover for a book, and to read chapters about Jon's travel log as he journeys north will be very uninteresting if he was dead and living in Ghost's body.

Best bet is that we will see it through Bran's or Benjen's POV. I mean, they are pretty far up north, just a little distance to cover and we get to see the others.

Another thing, I believe the Rhaegar and Lyanna theory about Jon's parents, so he still has a more important role to cover in the next two books regarding finding his true heritage and getting the whole realm united to fight the others.

[FalconGK]

Part time king, on 05 June 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

I'm seriously starting to doubt Mel's intentions...I mean, she is talking about defeating the Others (pretty obvious enemy), but what if say Robert and Ned were still alive? Would she still make Stannis rebel against the throne, because he is the champion of fire? She made him kill his younger brother, she could have conjured up her shadow to take Robert too if he were still king. This is insanely crackpot, but what if she actually had a hand in Robert's death? That would conveniently give Stannis the best claim to the throne...

Absent ANY evidence that this occured, this is mere speculation.  I do think Mel would have done so if needed, she believes she's on a holy quest from God and Stannis is the world's savior.  So murdering Robert does not seem like something she'd have a moral problem with.

Mel's problem is that she's misread the signs.  Stannis is not PtwP/AA.  But a confused/misled zealot is just as self-righteous as one following the "truth".

[CrypticWeirwood]

Why wuold Borroq be needed to help Jon return to his body? Why couldn’t he do that on his own, and if he couldn’t, of what use could another skinchanger be?

  I do agree Borroq is there for a Purpose, but I do not know what that is yet. Maybe it’s just so that the wildings realize that Jon is now locked up in Ghost’s chambers (or vice versa, depending on perspective) after his assassination? That doesn’t seem like much, really. Yes, it’s ostensibly for there to’ve been an excuse for why Ghost had gotten himself locked away, but I feel that that is really just a purpose, not a Purpose.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood, 05 June 2012 - 06:59 PM.

[Lpearce7]

The only reason I don't believe Melisandre will bring Jon back from the dead, is because of how Cat was so different from her original Tully/Stark self when she was brought back by Thoros. I know her throat was slit and that's why she doesn't speak(Yes, she said something to Brienne, but it was more of a gurgle than speaking), but she seems to be unforgiving and cold now. Although, after Ned's beheading, thinking her two youngest sons were dead as well as Arya, knowing Sansa was w/ Cersei, and then watching her oldest die in front of her, most people would be cold. However, Dondorrian was brought back several times and he seemed to be tired and lifeless toward the end. I just don't see Jon becoming that.

And if Jon does become the 1,000th LC of the NW, or even regains his current position, wouldn't it be too ironic to have a dead LC Snow fighting the dead Others?    Or maybe that's the advantage the NW needs to beat them, but I doubt that b/c I see the dragons beating them in the end

[LordDolorousEdd]

mel's said her powers were strongest at the wall so i think she could do a range of things in terms of healing/resurrection.

my real question is how the watch will react if they kill him and he comes back....

[Stark Outlook]

Lpearce7, on 05 June 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

The only reason I don't believe Melisandre will bring Jon back from the dead, is because of how Cat was so different from her original Tully/Stark self when she was brought back by Thoros. I know her throat was slit and that's why she doesn't speak(Yes, she said something to Brienne, but it was more of a gurgle than speaking), but she seems to be unforgiving and cold now. Although, after Ned's beheading, thinking her two youngest sons were dead as well as Arya, knowing Sansa was w/ Cersei, and then watching her oldest die in front of her, most people would be cold. However, Dondorrian was brought back several times and he seemed to be tired and lifeless toward the end. I just don't see Jon becoming that.

And if Jon does become the 1,000th LC of the NW, or even regains his current position, wouldn't it be too ironic to have a dead LC Snow fighting the dead Others? Or maybe that's the advantage the NW needs to beat them, but I doubt that b/c I see the dragons beating them in the end

totally agree, i dont think jon will be resurrected in the same way catelyn was because she's still not realy alive any more i'm guessing it will be more of a heal his wounds kinda thing. i dont think the resurrection has to be as literal as it sounds in the prophesy he wont have to actually die for it to be fulfilled

[Northern Pride]

Harland Flint, on 05 June 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Regarding Jon's resurrection, Mel has stated that there's power in King's Blood. I think it's possible that Mel burns Shireen to raise Jon.
If you buy the R+L=J theory (which I do), then burning Shireen who has greyscale could make Jon a "Stone Dragon" as prophesied.

I so do love a good crackpot theory. Well done. Can't wait to see Selyse's face if that happens.

[Ice Turtle]

If Shireen is going to burn it would be for Stannis and not Jon and most probable candidate to do it is Selyse.

[Bloodraven's Eye]

The difference between Jon being given the kiss of fire and Cat being resurrected is that Cat isn't a warg.  As a warg Jon's spirit has a place to retreat to when his body is killed instead of moving on.  If you accept this, then you will understand that Cat and Beric were just shells of themselves because their souls had already moved on leaving just their memories behind, and even those faded after a few resurrections in Beric's case.  Jon's body would be resurrected and his spirit would most likely be able to return to his body after spending time in ghost.  The evidence for this scenario comes in the Varamyr prologue, where the skinchanger muses over the possibility of a second life within Ghost. In fact he says something along the lines of a second life in a direwolf like that would be a second life fit for a king (foreshadowing of Jon's lineage by GRRM). Another source I see as evidence to this theory is Mel's vision of Jon  in her fire going from man to wolf and back to man again. That's pretty much as plain as GRRM could spell it out for us without giving us the resurrection chapter in Dance. Also, the line from Maester Aemon, "Kill the boy and let the man be born" echos this theory pretty much word for word.  If all that doesn't convince you people that Jonny boy is coming back bigger and badder than ever i don't know what will.

[Bloodraven's Eye]

Something else that just hit me is the wildling superstition that people with red hair are lucky because they've been "kissed by fire." We see the phrase a lot in SoS in the Jon PoVs at the same time that we see Arya's storyline with Beric and his resurrections through the power of R'hollor's kiss.  For me this kind of sets up the scenario at the end of Dance where you have wildlings who obviously want to follow Jon, you have a Red Priestess who even if she doesn't think she can resurrect Jon might want to burn his body (for many reasons: 1. King's blood as Robb's brother or a Stark bastard 2. Wildling custom to burn the bodies and he follows the Old Gods 3. So he doesn't come back as a walker) and she might feel emotional towards the situation like, "Oh Jon Snow you stupid bastard you should have listened to me. Daggers in the dark I told him. Keep Ghost close I told him. And now he's dead and we have to burn him. You know he's pretty sexy even though he's dead, I think I'll give him a fiery kiss to send him off." BOOM Jon is resurrected, his wounds are healed, and the wildlings think he is lucky because he's been kissed by fire, Mel names him Azor Ahai reborn (especially now that Stannis is presumed dead), and we officially have a new sheriff in town. He might even awaken the dragon within him if you prescribe to the R+L=J theory making him impervious to fire which would be pretty bad ass. Although I'm in the camp of those who believe Jon is of the North, more kissed by ice than by fire, but we'll have to wait and see.