71 replies to this topic

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I think the overall storyline of Qarth was improved for the show in the sense that it was very unbelievable that no one would attempt to steal the dragons (the most powerful weapons in the world) from a 16 year old girl and her small band of Dothraki greybeards + green boys.

The HotU was a bit of a disappointment, but I figured that it would be, given the limitations of the television format, so my enthusiasm was curbed for the scene. I did like the snow covered throne room and Drogo, which was surprising.  Also, as many other posters have stated, a lot of the visions would have been to spoiler-y for viewers. Especially the wolf's head with an iron crown. Even the most casual viewer could piece that together. They might not suspect the horror of the RW, but they would know something terrible will eventually happen to Robb.

[victim]

KC_Accidental, on 05 June 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I think locking Irri (was that her name?) in the vault was extremely harsh. Especially after she had already pimped her out to the Qartheens to get info on them. So she shagged Xaro? So what? She locks her in a vault to die a horrible death for that?! I always thought Dany was a hypcritical bitch but man that's dark.

I'm glad they killed her off. I thought the showrunners were keeping Doreah alive because she was pretty. Couldn't handle that shit.

[Tadco26]

Conversely I think it was less believeable.  In the books they have laws and are civilized people who don't just steal things from people because they can.  Dany's Kalisar is also considerably larger.  Certainly not an army and many are old men or young boys, but they are certainly more than the dozen she has on the show.  Beyond that she comes as an honored guest, not as a beggar about to starve to death.  All the nobles and commoners come to pay her homage and see her dragons.

If they were just going to steal her dragons, why not do it from the very start when they are at the gates?  Kill her dozen people and take them.  Why ask her to come to the House of the Undying instead of forcing her in regular chains at sword point after killing Jorah and all the rest of her people?  How did she go from having almost all of her people killed and her dragon's taken to being able to walk into the now king of Qarth's bed chambers, who apparently doesn't believe in guards?

Almost every scene she was in made Dany look like a moron, and whatever "action" we gained by the killing of the 13 and having the dragons stolen was lost with the anti-climatic House of the Undying.

[Greywolf2375]

KC_Accidental, on 05 June 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I think locking Irri (was that her name?) in the vault was extremely harsh. Especially after she had already pimped her out to the Qartheens to get info on them. So she shagged Xaro? So what? She locks her in a vault to die a horrible death for that?! I always thought Dany was a hypcritical bitch but man that's dark.

Potentially leaving Qarth without a ruler was a bit much as well. The city could descend into complete anarchy. I never really saw Xaro has doing that much wrong anyway. He just went along with the other elders getting killed, the dragon stealing was surely all Pyat Pree's doing. Sure he probably knew about it but seems a bit much. She should have just left him.

I believe she locked her in with XXD because Doreah was in on the theft of the dragons and betrayed Dany.

I'm guessing/speculating that we are going to see Dany in Qarth for a short bit next season as she attempts to leave someone in charge.

[Seekrit Targaryen]

Master Blaster runs Qarth.

Also:

DAENERYS: Doreah, go sleep around.
DOREAH: Yes, Khaleesi.
DAENERYS: Doreah, why the fuck are you sleeping around?! You whore! Blood and fire!

[Fez]

Tadco26, on 05 June 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

That makes little sense.  He doesn't have to have a vault overflowing with rare and exotic treasures to be the richest man in Qarth.  In a land with no credit cards I don't really see how he could have "hustled" a mansion filled with gold statues, cups and decorations.  He was dressed like nobility, lived in a mansion, and had servants and money to host all of Qarth's nobility.  He made it into one of the 13.  For him to have no magical all valuable treasure in his vault I can accept, but just the cost of making the "valarian stone vault" would not be trivial.  To say his wealth was completely a fraud I consider that a poorly written story line.

I don't think anyone meant that it was literally all a lie, just that he wasn't anywhere close to being the richest man in Qarth. He used the illusion of wealth to gain some actual wealth, but probably used nearly all of that to better maintain the illusion. Its a pretty common storytelling trope actually, and one with real world examples. Bernie Maddof for instance apparently couldn't even pay his credit card bills the month before he was arrested, but everyone thought he was worth billions.

[Darth Vader's Bastard]

KC_Accidental, on 05 June 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I think locking Irri (was that her name?) in the vault was extremely harsh. Especially after she had already pimped her out to the Qartheens to get info on them. So she shagged Xaro? So what? She locks her in a vault to die a horrible death for that?! I always thought Dany was a hypcritical bitch but man that's dark.

That was Doreah, and from what I gathered, she sold Dany out so that her dragons could be kidnapped. That's not exactly forgivable.

Compare it to your nanny or housekeeper playing a role in the abduction of your own children.

[Tadco26]

Fez, on 05 June 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

I don't think anyone meant that it was literally all a lie, just that he wasn't anywhere close to being the richest man in Qarth. He used the illusion of wealth to gain some actual wealth, but probably used nearly all of that to better maintain the illusion. Its a pretty common storytelling trope actually, and one with real world examples. Bernie Maddof for instance apparently couldn't even pay his credit card bills the month before he was arrested, but everyone thought he was worth billions.

Ok, but now he has killed off all the rest of the 13 and presumably claimed their riches and power.  Certainly he couldn't just kill them off and presume their families, friends and servants would automatically submit to him?  And even if he wasn't literally the richest man in Qarth, does that really matter?  Certainly he was considerably richer than the average commoner and had been maintaining the level of wealthy life style presumably for quite a while.  Long enough to become a member of the 13.  I think it is much easier to live beyond your means with credit cards and modern day paperless transactions than in Westeros or Essos.  How was he was even paying his daily expenses such as food and servants?  Now if they explained how he was scamming all this money then that would be different.

Even if your explanation is what the writers have in mind, I didn't find their explanation to be very convincing.

[Howdyphillip]

Tadco26, on 05 June 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

That makes little sense.  He doesn't have to have a vault overflowing with rare and exotic treasures to be the richest man in Qarth.  In a land with no credit cards I don't really see how he could have "hustled" a mansion filled with gold statues, cups and decorations.  He was dressed like nobility, lived in a mansion, and had servants and money to host all of Qarth's nobility.  He made it into one of the 13.  For him to have no magical all valuable treasure in his vault I can accept, but just the cost of making the "valarian stone vault" would not be trivial.  To say his wealth was completely a fraud I consider that a poorly written story line.

Nonsense...

I personally knew a number of people that used to live in HUGE houses that couldn't afford to put furniture in them. If you just looked on the outside, they appeared really rich. They didn't have a pot to piss in, but they lived in nice houses and drove nice cars. They did this so they could associate with people in the rich neighborhoods.

[AegonTheUnlikely]

Yeah- as much as I was not overly fond of the Dany/Qarth storyline, I do think the ends makes some amount of sense.  For what its worth, I understand that the producers were trying to give Dany something more to do than "repeatedly beg for ships; get denied," but like the Robb story line, I don't think it was up to par with other bits of the story that remained more faithful to the books,

re: Xaro, and his empty vault:  as others have said, it nicely plays into to what is perhaps the biggest theme of the season:  what is power, and where does it come from.  Many answers are provided, and the thing of it is that none is completely right.  Power comes from many places.  In Xaro's case, it was an illusion.  

XXD was a con-man, in the classic sense.  By convincing everyone he really is that rich, he gains the power that comes along with it.  In some cases, that is the power to demand a business deal be done on credit (e.g:  sail to Astapor, get me some slaves, and I'll pay you after I've sold them); in other cases, his illusory power bought XXD political access.  Like any good con, once its going, it kind of sustains itself.  Allowing XXD to accumulate some measure of actual wealth.

Further, complaints about the ease with which Dany et al sack XXD's house are, I think, overblown.  Remember, his entire persona is a ruse.  How heavily guarded do you think he keeps his non-existent wealth?  The idea is to put on the appearance of security, without actually spending what real security would cost- after all, there's really not much to guard, is there?  What's more, its entirely believable that the population of Qarth isn't itching to carry water for the self-professed King who very recently took power in a violent coup.  Never mind the fact that we're not quite sure what the fallout of the power-grab was, and what kind of chaos may have ensued as a result.  You can bet the Spice King, and others, had their own supporters who if not openly rebelling, are certainly not going to lift a finger to help the new regime.  Let Dany take XXD's stuff and kill him, and they can go about re-establishing the order.

Anyways, although I found the whole stolen dragons plot a bit tedious, I do think that it is at least internally consistent.  I've always kind of assumed at least one of the cities in Slaver's Bay would get the axe for either budgetary reasons, or economy of story.  Perhaps it will be Meereen?  You have to figure they leave in Astapor (it was name dropped late this season, I believe), and there probably needs to be a city she doesn't sack, but makes free their slaves.  She needs a third city to rule.  Perhaps they cut Yunkai, and have Qarth be the enemy city; or they cut Meereen and have her rule in Qarth?  FWIW, I'd like to see all three cities in Slaver's Bay- before she gets bogged down trying to rule, Dany's story there is pretty compelling.

Edited by AegonTheUnlikely, 05 June 2012 - 12:15 PM.

[protar]

AegonTheUnlikely, on 05 June 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Yeah- as much as I was not overly fond of the Dany/Qarth storyline, I do think the ends makes some amount of sense.  For what its worth, I understand that the producers were trying to give Dany something more to do than "repeatedly beg for ships; get denied," but like the Robb story line, I don't think it was up to par with other bits of the story that remained more faithful to the books,

re: Xaro, and his empty vault:  as others have said, it nicely plays into to what is perhaps the biggest theme of the season:  what is power, and where does it come from.  Many answers are provided, and the thing of it is that none is completely right.  Power comes from many places.  In Xaro's case, it was an illusion.  

XXD was a con-man, in the classic sense.  By convincing everyone he really is that rich, he gains the power that comes along with it.  In some cases, that is the power to demand a business deal be done on credit (e.g:  sail to Astapor, get me some slaves, and I'll pay you after I've sold them); in other cases, his illusory power bought XXD political access.  Like any good con, once its going, it kind of sustains itself.  Allowing XXD to accumulate some measure of actual wealth.

Further, complaints about the ease with which Dany et al sack XXD's house are, I think, overblown.  Remember, his entire persona is a ruse.  How heavily guarded do you think he keeps his non-existent wealth?  The idea is to put on the appearance of security, without actually spending what real security would cost- after all, there's really not much to guard, is there?  What's more, its entirely believable that the population of Qarth isn't itching to carry water for the self-professed King who very recently took power in a violent coup.  Never mind the fact that we're not quite sure what the fallout of the power-grab was, and what kind of chaos may have ensued as a result.  You can bet the Spice King, and others, had their own supporters who if not openly rebelling, are certainly not going to lift a finger to help the new regime.  Let Dany take XXD's stuff and kill him, and they can go about re-establishing the order.

Anyways, although I found the whole stolen dragons plot a bit tedious, I do think that it is at least internally consistent.  I've always kind of assumed at least one of the cities in Slaver's Bay would get the axe for either budgetary reasons, or economy of story.  Perhaps it will be Meereen?  You have to figure they leave in Astapor (it was name dropped late this season, I believe), and there probably needs to be a city she doesn't sack, but makes free their slaves.  She needs a third city to rule.  Perhaps they cut Yunkai, and have Qarth be the enemy city; or they cut Meereen and have her rule in Qarth?  FWIW, I'd like to see all three cities in Slaver's Bay- before she gets bogged down trying to rule, Dany's story there is pretty compelling.

I think Yunkai is the one to be cut. S3 will probably all be in Astapor imo, then season 4 can be her conquest of Meereen with elements taken from the conquests of both Yunkai and Meereen from the books.

[TheEvilKing]

Poor Doreah. I'm going to miss her and Irri.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Darth Vader, on 05 June 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

That was Doreah, and from what I gathered, she sold Dany out so that her dragons could be kidnapped. That's not exactly forgivable.

Compare it to your nanny or housekeeper playing a role in the abduction of your own children.

Yep, and honestly I don't understand how such a great number of people seem to not quite grok this.  I knew Doreah was fucked (figuratively) as soon as I saw her in bed with XXD.

As for XXD himself, I agree he was a classic con artist, living high off his reputation as the "wealthiest man in Qarth" without having very much actual wealth.  Con artists do this often in real life.

[Jory]

To the OP: who cares? Qarth's role has never been as a political chesspiece or whatever. "Who rules Qarth" is a completely trivial question, one that the show brought on itself, I admit.

Edited by Jory, 05 June 2012 - 01:43 PM.

[Howdyphillip]

Jory, on 05 June 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

To the OP: who cares? Qarth's role has never been as a political chesspiece or whatever. "Who rules Qarth" is a completely trivial question, one that the show brought on itself, I admit.

If I am correct in my supposition, then Fred Savage would care... very much...

Now... Prove me wrong

Edited by Holafernando Torres, 05 June 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Tadco26, on 05 June 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

That makes little sense.  He doesn't have to have a vault overflowing with rare and exotic treasures to be the richest man in Qarth.  In a land with no credit cards I don't really see how he could have "hustled" a mansion filled with gold statues, cups and decorations.  He was dressed like nobility, lived in a mansion, and had servants and money to host all of Qarth's nobility.  He made it into one of the 13.  For him to have no magical all valuable treasure in his vault I can accept, but just the cost of making the "valarian stone vault" would not be trivial.  To say his wealth was completely a fraud I consider that a poorly written story line.

Littlefinger came from one of the most minor, poverty stricken Houses in the Seven Kingdoms. Yet through his ability to hustle, cheat, deceive and plot, he rose to be one of the richest, most powerful men in Westeros. It is not out of the realm of belief to think that Xaro managed to do quite the same thing in Qarth. Xaro probably owed a lot of money out. He probably made it SEEM as if he was fabulously rich, yet lived way beyond his means and was up to his eyeballs in debt to the Iron Bank or some such. His major leverage was this falsehood of his fabulous treasure trove in the vault. People believed he had this so he was good for his word. "Oh, the check's in the mail, good ser!"

[kevinbgwrites]

After having seen this season I'm worried non readers are going to get frustrated Dany doesn't get to Westeros. I guarantee at the end of season 1 they expected her to be on her way by season 2. Hopefully they find a way to speed her stuff up or get her to westerns sooner or I fear people may abandon the show. Book 3's material should be fine but book 5 will be very lacking.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

AegonTheUnlikely, on 05 June 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Perhaps they cut Yunkai, and have Qarth be the enemy city; or they cut Meereen and have her rule in Qarth?  FWIW, I'd like to see all three cities in Slaver's Bay- before she gets bogged down trying to rule, Dany's story there is pretty compelling.

I think they'll definitely cut the importance of one of the Slaver cities and it will probably be Yunkai. They might the action as a afterward recall but they won't show it on screen. I don't understand how they could cut either Astapor or Meereen as they are so essential to Dany's character development. They can and will make changes to her story, as they've done for every other character. But as long as they keep the essence of her story arc in place and she ends up where she needs to end up, then I'm a happy fan.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

I just read the whole Xaro meeting with Dany in Meereen scene in ADWD the other day so effectively killing off Xaro was a bit confusing lol. But I guess they could just have some random emissary turn up years from now in season whatever. Or cut Qarth out all together.

What really troubled me, from the perspective of this being a TV show, was where the fuck did all these new people come from? Wasn't her entire, piddly Khalasar wiped out (inexplicably) a few episodes ago, leaving her alone with Jorah and a couple of ko? All the dead bodies in Xaro's compound, I assumed that was her entire Khalasar? That they'd taken her story in a completely different direction. Oh well. It's all good I suppose.

/randomrant

[StarkWard]

We never really get an idea of how justice is done in Qarth. if a man murders his neighbor, what proceedings happen? Because of this, we don't know the political aftermath either. We don't know if the 13's families sought retribution.

As to the security in Xaro's home, didn't some of his own men die when the dragons were abducted? This leaves his manse with less security, unless he hired more men, of course.